Old 1095 usa nicholson files

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herektir

Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
76
I've had a USA made nicholson file for years now, using it for various things but it finally just got too dull to really cut metal anymore. Decided to repurpose it into a knife but I am having some difficulty finding info what rockwell these files came from the factory. Heard anywhere from 60, but maybe 62 or could be higher but I dont know as so far all the I can google up is anecdotal heard from a friend of a friend of someone who tested once.

Ive done some grinding and cutting with a bench grinder and a hacksaw (gave up cutting after a 1/4 inch ). Unannealed I have it to rough knife shape after a long time grinding(water always near to cool it) and would really like to know if it really would be too hard to use as a non heavy duty knife. 60 rockwell could work, 62 would be too hard, and over that would be right out. My intent is to have a 4.5 inch handle, 4.5 inch blade shallow hollow ground convexing near the edge for strength much like the more brittle 440c in the Buck 110s from the 60s and 70s.

If anyone here knows the RC hardness of these files I would appreciate the information.


As an aside I've been lurking these forums for years now gleaning info on knives, steels, brands, etc but have had little to offer for information so havent posted anything. I own 1 Kershaw, 3 Buck, 2 Schrade(usa), 1 Esee4, 1 Case(mid 60's vintage), 1 Crkt(very early one before they went cheap),and 1 Tidioute(my favourite). Before I found this forum i had 1 knife with rather pathetic steel I came to realize so thank you for being here fellow forumites.
 
You will most likely ruin the heat treat grinding on it with a bench grinder, so you will have to re treat it anyways. Besides that, I do not know exactly what hardness it is at.
 
Tested with another file all over the knife blank and it skates not leaving a mark anywhere. When I say I took a long time grinding i mean a long time, light pressure constant dipping in water and finger always on the metal to make sure it didnt get hot. Probably 8 or 9 hours as i had little else at the time to do.
 
It is probably in the mid 60s now. Putting it in an oven at 425-450 for 2 hours will take the temper to the 58-59RC range which would be good for a 1095 knife. I think I read the files where W2 and the horseshoe rasps 1095, but the temper is the same. Grinding a knife with a bench grinder is a hard way to go especially with already hardened steel. Be especially careful near the edge. Once you are close you can use sandpaper over a steel bar to finish and smooth. I would even consider using some good 80 grit emery cloth to start if you can find some. Good luck. Even a hand held belt sander from a pawn shop mounted in a vise would beat anything but a very large bench grinder with a course and fine stone. I would even use a 4 1/2 grinder over either. but then I have probably worn out several dozen small grinders. I should do a thread on making a knife from a file with a 4 1/2" grinder.
 
SteelSlaver said:
It is probably in the mid 60s now. Putting it in an oven at 425-450 for 2 hours will take the temper to the 58-59RC range which would be good for a 1095 knife.
Click to expand...

IF you didn't over heat it while grinding, then what Jim says will probably work well. In the mean-time, IF you didn't over heat it, then don't drop it. It will probably shatter like a piece of glass.

Good luck and remember to show us the final results.

Robert
 
Before i even started work on it i did 3 test drops on concrete from shoulder height holding it different ways just to see if there were any preexisting stresses in it. Clanged up good and loud with no cracking or breakage. I realize that its going to be a good bit thinner as a blade so more vulnerable so no more droping on purpose. I will read up in more detail on tempering it down though as i really dont want to have it snap with as much work that is going to be put into this. I plan to use a piece of osage orange thats been dead for years as a handle which presents its own problems as its rock hard. Took 10 minutes to cut the end off a 4 inch wide stick with a good sharp bow saw.
 
Tempering it back is probably the best course of action. Get an oven thermometer as that will give you a more precise and accurate temperature. If you put the blade in a pan of sand in the oven that will help with overheating the file due to temperature fluctuations and radiant heat. It is OK to slowly heat it up to 425 F.
 
We have gotten some files tested by a metallurgical lab and they are different steels and the same company may use different steels at different times, but with only 2 exceptions from hundreds we've used have been hypereutectoid water quenching steels. One of the ones I had tested was W1 with 1.3% carbon and actually a tiny bit of chromium, which "shouldn't" be in W1, but W1 was the closest match to a known grade for the alloy composition of the file. One of the main reason manufacturers likely use these steels for files is that they can get target hardness on the outside, but a somewhat tougher core due to how shallow hardening they are. That said, don't expect the whole blade to end up being the same HRC if you don't reheat-treat it, but grind out the profile. Also, the amount of carbon they have in solution in the file is dependent on what soak time and austenitizing temp they used when heat treating it, so the hardness/temp relationships may no be what you expect (i.e. 59 at 425F or whatever) even if you knew the steel. Most file steels need to be tempered up near 525F to get below 60 HRC (like I said, we've used hundreds AND have a rockwell tester and this is say 80%+ consistent). We take ours to 59-60 usually, which is either 525F or 550F depending on the piece. The soak time and temps we use may not be what industry uses (likely not exactly), they're just what work in our shop to get target hardness and fine grain size without much RA hopefully, but if anything ours are under industry spec temps for the classes of steels. I suggest breaking the tip or chipping the edge, or really trying to, to get an idea of toughness and if it does it too easily temper it higher. Keep doing this until it's tough enough for what you intend to use it for and just use it. Most people's problems with file knives are due to faults of toughness, but that's likely because they don't realize how high they have to temper it to get it to below 60 HRC or they overheat it (if they heat treat it) during austenitization and get WAY too much carbon in solution and get bad cementite precipitation in all the wrong places and/or have bad RA so the edge doesn't support itself but is also brittle.
 
The one consistant thing i can find about nicholson usa files is that prior to 1960s they had w1 and or 1095, but after that it was 1095 up till whenever the cheapening started and move to china. This file is(was) 25 to 30 years old


The piece i gave up trying to cut off with the hacksaw i broke off with it mounted in a vice right at the cut point. It took 4 hits from a 3 pound hand sledge to break it off. I didnt lightly tap it either, specially on the 3rd and 4th swings they were not full power hits either though. I currently have it shallow hollow ground with the last 3/16 inch or so shallow convexed near the edge. Distal taper starting about mid point of the blade increasing in angle to the tip for a bit of a tougher point. Spine droped about 1/4 inch to make it a drop point blade. Pretty much just imagine a drop point buck 110 fixed blade with the older 440c hand beveling. The very tip, maybe 1/32 inch maybe less did get overheated, turning blueish but a slight reprofile got rid of that. No other overheating problems.

Im going to put an edge on part of the blade i can reprofile easily and try using it on some tougher cutting duties to see if it holds, rolls(not likely), or chips out. If it chips out of course ill need to get the oven ready. The best info i can find is to put it on a cookie sheet in sand covered with a smaller cookie sheet so the heating is fairly even thoughout the blade. That sound workable? or dont bother with the sand?
 
BloodrootBlades said:
We have gotten some files tested by a metallurgical lab and they are different steels and the same company may use different steels at different times, but with only 2 exceptions from hundreds we've used have been hypereutectoid water quenching steels. One of the ones I had tested was W1 with 1.3% carbon and actually a tiny bit of chromium, which "shouldn't" be in W1, but W1 was the closest match to a known grade for the alloy composition of the file. One of the main reason manufacturers likely use these steels for files is that they can get target hardness on the outside, but a somewhat tougher core due to how shallow hardening they are. That said, don't expect the whole blade to end up being the same HRC if you don't reheat-treat it, but grind out the profile. Also, the amount of carbon they have in solution in the file is dependent on what soak time and austenitizing temp they used when heat treating it, so the hardness/temp relationships may no be what you expect (i.e. 59 at 425F or whatever) even if you knew the steel. Most file steels need to be tempered up near 525F to get below 60 HRC (like I said, we've used hundreds AND have a rockwell tester and this is say 80%+ consistent). We take ours to 59-60 usually, which is either 525F or 550F depending on the piece. The soak time and temps we use may not be what industry uses (likely not exactly), they're just what work in our shop to get target hardness and fine grain size without much RA hopefully, but if anything ours are under industry spec temps for the classes of steels. I suggest breaking the tip or chipping the edge, or really trying to, to get an idea of toughness and if it does it too easily temper it higher. Keep doing this until it's tough enough for what you intend to use it for and just use it. Most people's problems with file knives are due to faults of toughness, but that's likely because they don't realize how high they have to temper it to get it to below 60 HRC or they overheat it (if they heat treat it) during austenitization and get WAY too much carbon in solution and get bad cementite precipitation in all the wrong places and/or have bad RA so the edge doesn't support itself but is also brittle.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, it backs up some of the results I've experienced. Is the higher tempering temperature due to the extra carbon or is there some other factor?
 
herektir said:
The one consistant thing i can find about nicholson usa files is that prior to 1960s they had w1 and or 1095, but after that it was 1095 up till whenever the cheapening started and move to china. This file is(was) 25 to 30 years old


The piece i gave up trying to cut off with the hacksaw i broke off with it mounted in a vice right at the cut point. It took 4 hits from a 3 pound hand sledge to break it off. I didnt lightly tap it either, specially on the 3rd and 4th swings they were not full power hits either though. I currently have it shallow hollow ground with the last 3/16 inch or so shallow convexed near the edge. Distal taper starting about mid point of the blade increasing in angle to the tip for a bit of a tougher point. Spine droped about 1/4 inch to make it a drop point blade. Pretty much just imagine a drop point buck 110 fixed blade with the older 440c hand beveling. The very tip, maybe 1/32 inch maybe less did get overheated, turning blueish but a slight reprofile got rid of that. No other overheating problems.

Im going to put an edge on part of the blade i can reprofile easily and try using it on some tougher cutting duties to see if it holds, rolls(not likely), or chips out. If it chips out of course ill need to get the oven ready. The best info i can find is to put it on a cookie sheet in sand covered with a smaller cookie sheet so the heating is fairly even thoughout the blade. That sound workable? or dont bother with the sand?
Click to expand...

For tempering in a home oven, do you have a pizza stone or stoneware pan? I would just put it on that and it will help even the heat, otherwise it wouldn't hurt to put it on a metal pan, but I think the sand (while it wouldn't hurt anything) would be more of a pain than anything. Even directly on the rack I don't think the overheating if present would be too bad, and these steels temper so little per temp change that it may affect it a half a RC point or something, which, for the way that you're constructing this blade is more than within the precision of the rest of your HT process.
 
GHEzell said:
Thanks for that, it backs up some of the results I've experienced. Is the higher tempering temperature due to the extra carbon or is there some other factor?
Click to expand...

Considering the compositions of the steels I would say it has to do with the very high carbon (not much else right?) and that other alloys can affect the responsiveness of an alloy to tempering one way or another.
 
herektir said:
The one consistant thing i can find about nicholson usa files is that prior to 1960s they had w1 and or 1095, but after that it was 1095 up till whenever the cheapening started and move to china. This file is(was) 25 to 30 years old
Click to expand...

I've heard this too, but I don't know if I can believe it as there's an enormous amount of hearsay floating around about everything to do with knifemaking, but particularly heat treatment and the compositions of unknown steels that I just simply don't believe it. Even if it's true, W1 can have a carbon range of 0.7-1.4% depending on what an industry orders. . . the designation of W1 literally means almost nothing unless you know the carbon range. At the high end of the range there's likely nothing more similar to Hitachi White #1 made in the US.
 
I've put a good edge on part of the belly of the blade for ease of reprofile and tested it on some oak firewood. Carved on it, chopped on it, tapped on the edge laterally(sp) on wood then on the metel frame of the firewood holder. No chipping and little if no dulling on the edge. Since it seems solid enough for the purposes i have for it, ive put the orange osage wood blanks on the handle and currently slowly sanding them to shape.
 
http://s817.photobucket.com/user/herektir/media/e96fc605-bbad-4a67-b12f-289fd6abffba_zps5316fced.jpg.html?state=copy#/user/herektir/media/e96fc605-bbad-4a67-b12f-289fd6abffba_zps5316fced.jpg.html?state=copy&_suid=1382674569491045399805931986886
1022131032-00_zps8f181715.jpg.html


http://s817.photobucket.com/user/herektir/media/1022131032-00_zps8f181715.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/herektir/media/1022131029-00_zps1295a302.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1&_suid=138267468046805418391777702656
e96fc605-bbad-4a67-b12f-289fd6abffba_zps5316fced.jpg.html


Unfinished state as of 3 days ago. First attempt at making a knife with only a bench grinder, lots of water and hand sandpaper available. Currently im annoyingly sandpapering away some orange osage, damn its hard wood when its been dry for years.

Ok i couldnt seem to directly add the photo to the post, dont know how to make it work right.
 
Last edited:
herektir said:
http://s817.photobucket.com/user/herektir/media/e96fc605-bbad-4a67-b12f-289fd6abffba_zps5316fced.jpg.html?state=copy#/user/herektir/media/e96fc605-bbad-4a67-b12f-289fd6abffba_zps5316fced.jpg.html?state=copy&_suid=1382674569491045399805931986886
1022131032-00_zps8f181715.jpg.html


http://s817.photobucket.com/user/herektir/media/1022131032-00_zps8f181715.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/herektir/media/1022131029-00_zps1295a302.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1&_suid=138267468046805418391777702656
e96fc605-bbad-4a67-b12f-289fd6abffba_zps5316fced.jpg.html


Unfinished state as of 3 days ago. First attempt at making a knife with only a bench grinder, lots of water and hand sandpaper available. Currently im annoyingly sandpapering away some orange osage, damn its hard wood when its been dry for years.

Ok i couldnt seem to directly add the photo to the post, dont know how to make it work right.
Click to expand...


e96fc605-bbad-4a67-b12f-289fd6abffba_zps5316fced.jpg


1022131032-00_zps8f181715.jpg
 
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