Old European axes.

[Thurs]

Hello men i need your help.

I got a few axes here i like to know more about. As in age, the maker or were they came from. Two of them are old barn finds my dad did when he was younger, prob aroud 1975. The other ones i got from an triftshop. They were all founded in the Netherlands. I know a few thing already but I like to know what you guys think.


This one i got from a trifshop:

This one my dad found in an old barn long ago:

This one my dad also found. I know its old but im no sure how old and were it came from. Looks like it has some francisca features. So problay a france axe?:

Let me know what you guys think, thanks!

 

[40oz]

Those are really cool. Looks like you could pick them up and go to to work, despite the apparant age. Thanks for sharing and sorry I couldn't tell you anything new about them.

 

[flexo]

the lower one reminds me some of southern Limousin, axes with a specific use , can't remember wich ,but has Something to do with sweetchestnut work. with more curvature though...

 

[Thurs]

Those are really cool. Looks like you could pick them up and go to to work, despite the apparant age. Thanks for sharing and sorry I couldn't tell you anything new about them.

Yes i think they have been well used in there days i think. They are also still sharp. The last time the last one got sharpen, is with a spinning stone i have been told.

the lower one reminds me some of southern Limousin, axes with a specific use , can't remember wich ,but has Something to do with sweetchestnut work. with more curvature though...

Thanks for you post. I'm gonna do some research on that. If you remember let me know please.
With the last axe, i have been to an antique specialist. But he could not tell much. Only that its probably an frankish axe. Specially the art markings at the back makes it an really old axe he said. Why i dont know. Maby because blacksmiths used little marks like hearths or faces, animals or letters later on in time. like the first axe, it has an hearth on it if you look close. 3rd picture. That axe i know its probably made and used in Austria. Because of the art on it. And the hearth above it.

 

[flexo]

http://www.forum-outils-anciens.com/t5890-hache-du-macif-central.htm

i wrote a post but to late it erased itself, i do it once again with a link to such axes tool forum, then i remember the activity was feuillardier the one who makes sweetchestnut loops for wine barrels making.

 

[flexo]

https://youtu.be/OI9mrEKW27I
feuillardier with too much pr..k bla bla!
https://youtu.be/wUZ0s2nQt74 one with more work less show..

 

[flexo]

name of this style off axe in french is "hache de scieur de long" i finally got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes!!!!!!!!!!

the meaning is roughly:" lengthway sawyer'axe"
these are "scieurs de long":
https://youtu.be/NKhy_YTOBdw

 

[markv]

would be nice to know what work these old choppers were meant for.
thanks for posting

 

[littleknife]

That axe i know its probably made and used in Austria. Because of the art on it. And the hearth above it.

You are probably right.

Here is another axe described as being an Austrian one:

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/1998...ntury_Austrian_axe_hatchet_FREE_SHIPPING.html

Please note the similarity (and also the difference) between the (trade?) markings on the bit.

And this one, like yours, has similar markings near the edge of the poll:

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/1882...ntury_austrian_axe_hatchet_free_shipping.html

 

[Agent_H]

http://www.forum-outils-anciens.com/t5890-hache-du-macif-central.htm

i wrote a post but to late it erased itself, i do it once again with a link to such axes tool forum, then i remember the activity was feuillardier the one who makes sweetchestnut loops for wine barrels making.

These pictures were lifted from http://www.forum-outils-anciens.com/t5890-hache-du-macif-central.htm where Flexo was linking.

Numbers 254 and 255 from the first picture there seem to have the same(similar) bit shape and poll portion. I didn't go deep but Google brought up several photos of what looked like guys hewing logs maybe for the purpose of keeping the strips intact for use for something else. I don't have any experience with them, just thought it was an interesting post.

 

[Thurs]

http://www.forum-outils-anciens.com/t5890-hache-du-macif-central.htm

i wrote a post but to late it erased itself, i do it once again with a link to such axes tool forum, then i remember the activity was feuillardier the one who makes sweetchestnut loops for wine barrels making.

Thanks man i did helped allot. My french isnt that good but its a really good inside. Im not really convinced about 254 and the 255, but they sure look like it. I know that company because how funny it may be. I got an axe that has been made by F.bret. Maby ill post a picture later. Really cool axe to! But thanks for your research man, i really appreciate it!!!

would be nice to know what work these old choppers were meant for.
thanks for posting

Np man! Well the first one is for sure a carpenters axe. The other ones just have been told by Flexo haha.

You are probably right.

Here is another axe described as being an Austrian one:

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/1998...ntury_Austrian_axe_hatchet_FREE_SHIPPING.html

Please note the similarity (and also the difference) between the (trade?) markings on the bit.

And this one, like yours, has similar markings near the edge of the poll:

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/1882...ntury_austrian_axe_hatchet_free_shipping.html

Wow! They look very similar yes. The marks are almost the same. I have seen some axes who look kinda like it. But not as much as these!
The austrians are famous for making art on there axes. It has probably something to do with christianity. But im not sure. Thanks allot for your post! really appreciate it!

These pictures were lifted from http://www.forum-outils-anciens.com/t5890-hache-du-macif-central.htm where Flexo was linking.

Numbers 254 and 255 from the first picture there seem to have the same(similar) bit shape and poll portion. I didn't go deep but Google brought up several photos of what looked like guys hewing logs maybe for the purpose of keeping the strips intact for use for something else. I don't have any experience with them, just thought it was an interesting post.

Yeah i have seen them they look very similar. And are probably almost the same, well atleast were they were used for. But i think the axe is abid older than these wen these papers were made. I know the company started 1804 but started making axes abid later on.

 

[Agent_H]

Not a problem Thurs. I speak English, Spanish, and can read French pretty well so I found it interesting. Some of the terms for the different models I couldn't quite place but maybe someone can. Several of the models listed are marked "left" or "right" handed - makes me think of hewing. Kind of helps narrow what they are/were used for.

Like I said, I don't have any experience with either style of axe but for some reason I want to try the larger one.

Pretty cool axes for sure - thanks for sharing them. :thumbup:

 

[jake pogg]

I'd say that the first axe is Germanic in origin(Germany,Austria,but possibly even somewhat further toward Carpathian Mnts...).
If you're not familiar with this collection,it may have an analog:https://hobelaxt.wordpress.com/cate...turies-of-axes-18-siecles-de-haches-doloires/

Such designs were popular in medieval(and later) Northern Europe,they're a variant of a "tree of life" pattern,somehow associated with the trades(carpentry especially);but were so widespread as to make them virtually useless for dating.
If you look very close,it's possible that some weld-seams may be visible.A given construction scheme may help you to place that axe closer to period and region,maybe...
A beautiful tool,in any case,and very useful as well,i'm sure.Thanks for showing it here.
All the best,Jake

 

[rjdankert]

. . .
If you're not familiar with this collection,it may have an analog:https://hobelaxt.wordpress.com/cate...turies-of-axes-18-siecles-de-haches-doloires/
. . .

Jake, what a great site. Thanks for posting.

Bob

 

[littleknife]

I'd say that the first axe is Germanic in origin(Germany,Austria,but possibly even somewhat further toward Carpathian Mnts...).
If you’re not familiar with this collection,it may have an analog:https://hobelaxt.wordpress.com/cate...turies-of-axes-18-siecles-de-haches-doloires/

Austrian prior to 1918 meant frequently being from the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Until WWI most of the Carpathian mountains were located within the borders of the Hapsburg Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Within the empire the Austrian/German influence had a strong cultural impact on the various local ethnicities, especially that the males were conscripted and served in the army for 3 to 5-10 years. Also, most of the ironworking and blacksmithing was done by small shops organized in the medieval guilds system which included journeymen traveling to the shops of masters far away or even abroad. Variants of the Hungarian fokos, the Carpathian mountain shepherd’s axe, called ciupaga or cekanka in Poland, valaška in Slovakia and baltag in Romania have quite a variation of forms, and some of those do resembled the first axe posted above by Thurs (but most do not).

Look for example at this wooden walking stick carved to resemble a ciupaga:

http://thumbs1.picclick.com/d/w1600...ARVED-WOOD-HATCHET-AXE-CANE-WALKING-STICK.jpg

I don’t know if the form is a “Carpathian” one, but I think it is more likely, that the Carpathian artisans copied some Austrian model.

 

[littleknife]

I'd say that the first axe is Germanic in origin(Germany,Austria,but possibly even somewhat further toward Carpathian Mnts...).
If you’re not familiar with this collection,it may have an analog:https://hobelaxt.wordpress.com/cate...turies-of-axes-18-siecles-de-haches-doloires/

Thanks for posting the link to this nice collection. :thumbup:

The location for some of the axes shown is listed as of their current country, which is sometimes misleading. The medieval and early modern empires of Europe were not post-Napoleonic nation states, but ethnically very mixed countries.
For example Slovakia did not exist as a country prior to 1918, and Slovakians lived spread through the empire with large populations in what is today Northern Serbia and Western Romania and Western Ukraine. On the other hand there were many German towns and villages in what is today Slovakia. Transylvania became part of Romania only after WWI. 18th Century Transylvania was part of the Hapsburg Austrian Empire, prior to that it was a semi-independent Ottoman vassal state ruled by Hungarian dukes, and prior to the Turkish invasion of Hungary in the 16th Century, it was a Hungarian region with Saxon colonists.
The Germanic types of axes from Transylvania could have been from the Saxon towns and cities or acquired through trade from Austria or Germany.

 

[jake pogg]

Wow,Littleknife,thanks for all the info,and very impressive awareness of European history,especially of that part of it,one of the most confusing...It's a great asset,and particularly so if one were to attempt to attribute any of the tools of the area.
My own informedness on that subject is zilch,alas(though i've the misfortune of having been born thereabouts...,but i sense that you're right:That square recess on the bottom of the axe places it very close to the fokos/Gutsul/et c. axes of the Carpathians,and in the same time it's careful craftsmanship,well-shaped outline,could place it's origin anywhere in the Frankish north...
It is somehow very interesting that a tool like that should end up on the Atlantic seaboard,but come to think of it-perfectly logical!I just never really thought of it that way...Or rarely,anyway...(there seems to be somewhat of a consensus to avoid attributing the "tomahawk" shapes of the Colonial period to the farming axes produced in Eastern/Central Europe,it seems offensive to the romantic notions held by many...and i understand perfectly).
Thanks again,fascinating stuff.

 

[littleknife]

Jake, I am not expert in axe pattern history, but what I have read is that the Colonial and early US and Canada trade axes and hatchets (“tomahawks”) were based on the Basque axe patterns from the Biscay region traded across the Atlantic by the French, and later on copied by the English as an easy & cheap to produce pattern, which was an easy to recognize best seller among the native tribes:

http://www.furtradetomahawks.com/biscayne-trade-axes---9.html

And again, many of these patterns are derived from earlier Medieval axe patterns which were common in all corners of Europe, so most likely the Basques and the Central/Eastern Europeans both continued to produce earlier common patterns.

For example, bearded axes were once common all over Europe, but by the early 20th century they were prevalent only in less industrialized Parts of Central Europe (Austria), Northern Europe (Scandinavia, Finland), South-Eastern Europe (Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania), and in Russia. Many of these regions have bearded axes so similar in shape, one might be tempted to attribute a direct influence, but most likely they have a common early origin rather. Archeologists and historians could provide data and arguments for this common origin (Vikings? Goths? others?).

Similarly, I think the square recess in the axe head of question is likely derived from an earlier Medieval pattern and may be derived from a stylized reference to the then common bearded axes, or even might be copying an axe form originally created from a reworked bit with a broken off beard.

 

[jake pogg]

Jake, I am not expert in axe pattern history, but what I have read is that the Colonial and early US and Canada trade axes and hatchets (“tomahawks”) were based on the Basque axe patterns from the Biscay region traded across the Atlantic by the French, and later on copied by the English as an easy & cheap to produce pattern, which was an easy to recognize best seller among the native tribes:

http://www.furtradetomahawks.com/biscayne-trade-axes---9.html

And again, many of these patterns are derived from earlier Medieval axe patterns which were common in all corners of Europe, so most likely the Basques and the Central/Eastern Europeans both continued to produce earlier common patterns.

For example, bearded axes were once common all over Europe, but by the early 20th century they were prevalent only in less industrialized Parts of Central Europe (Austria), Northern Europe (Scandinavia, Finland), South-Eastern Europe (Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania), and in Russia. Many of these regions have bearded axes so similar in shape, one might be tempted to attribute a direct influence, but most likely they have a common early origin rather. Archeologists and historians could provide data and arguments for this common origin (Vikings? Goths? others?).

Similarly, I think the square recess in the axe head of question is likely derived from an earlier Medieval pattern and may be derived from a stylized reference to the then common bearded axes, or even might be copying an axe form originally created from a reworked bit with a broken off beard.

Thanks yet again for such a scholarly view(i think that the study of axes is in dire need of just such a careful and informed analysis).
Alas,i lack any sufficiency of a historical background to form a generalised view on any of it.My interest stems from more practical,hands-on processes(trying to explore some of these shapes by forging them).
I seem to (also lack the right to post images here,so will go about it this way(i'll try to clean it up later).Here's a link to a russian-language resourse,where a scan of an old Josef Bratmann catalog is posted http://rusknife.com/topic/18369-немецкие-топоры-типология/

(Post # 15)

Again,sorry to go about it that way,but,in the scan you'll see an axe fairly similar,with that characteristic recess.What's interesting to me,as a smith,are a few other axes on that same page,where that recess is indicated by a couple of indents...It is actually how one would go about forging in such an indent,and may well be a trace of that specific feature either coming,or going...
(for whatever such info is worth...)
Best regards,Jake

 

[littleknife]

Here's a link to a russian-language resourse,where a scan of an old Josef Bratmann catalog is posted http://rusknife.com/topic/18369-немецкие-топоры-типология/
(Post # 15)

Jake, Thanks for this very interesting link. :thumbup:

The thread discusses German axe patterns and their typology.
Interestingly post #15 you referred to shows so called Hungarian, Polish, Serbian, Romanian and Bulgarian axe patterns too.
It is important to know, that all these ethnicities could be found within the borders of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (and they lived in the same time outside of it too), so the ethnic reference might not be a proof that these patterns were common among the same ethnicities living farther away.
The No. 412 Chernowitzer pattern (Polish/Hungarian), the No. 425 Hungarian pattern, the No. 429 Bulgarian pattern, the No. 432 Romanian pattern, the No. 437 (Transylvanian?) pattern, the No. 439 Slavic pattern, the 442 Jassyer pattern ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasz_people ), the No. 1930 pattern, the No. 477 Kaschauer (Kassai) pattern, the No. 483 Grenzerhacke pattern, the No. 485 South Hungarian pattern all resemble the axe post by Thurs above, and all may or may not be derived from Germanic pattern(s).

The Kabola-Poljanaer Josef Bratmann Eisenwerke, or Josef Bratmann Ironworks of Kabolecka Poljana ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobylezka_Poljana ) was an Austro-Hungarian company located in what is now Western Ukraine.

You are right, I have not considered that the indentation might simply derive from the way the bits were/are forged by the blacksmith, and left in the shape as forged.