old timer 80t mystery.....

[Knife-Nutty]

Today I picked up a usa old timer 80t at the flea market, its in fantastic shape clean snappy blades most likely unused. In fact it was so clean I was unsure if it was carbon... after forcing a patina for the sole purpose of finding out what happened has mystified me. The clip and spey blades have both taken a very nice patina and are definitely carbon, however the sheepsfoot is still gleaming bright. I believe I rwmeber reading somewhere that shrade would occasionally sneak in stainless blades does anyone have any information on this? And if it is stainless how is shrades stainless? Also if it helps, the only stamp on the knife is on the clip and reads "shrade" with "usa 80t" below it thabk you in advance for your wealth of knowledge guys!

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Might be worth posting some pics of the knife (all blades).

I've never heard of Schrade's multi-blade folders getting a 'mix' of carbon & stainless in one knife from the factory. But obviously, strange things occasionally do happen. The thought occurred to me, that the knife might've been repaired with a newer stainless blade at some point. But, if that Schrade was like many or most older ones from them, that would be an extensive project. They used a 'Swinden Key' construction for the pivots, which is nowhere near as straightforward as the pinned bolster construction in most other knives. Reason I suggested posting pics is, if there's a visible pivot pin on the bolster where the sheepsfoot is anchored. If so, that would suggest the factory Swinden-Key pivot had been taken down & rebuilt with a standard pivot pin (Swinden Key pivots don't have an exposed pivot pin). Even so, if Schrade actually did a full factory repair or rebuild, it might've still been done to original specs.

Schrade USA's older stainless blades were mostly 440A, though I think they transitioned into 420HC sometime in their later years ('90s, I think). Their 440A blades have a good rep, if not excellent. Don't know how their 420HC might compare, however.

What did you use to force the patina?


David

 

[Knife-Nutty]

I used yellow mustard, I only forced the patina to determine if it was carbon and it was, well most of it, I'm not sure how to post pictures but if you could give me some instruction I'd be happy to. Thank you for the help!

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I used yellow mustard, I only forced the patina to determine if it was carbon and it was, well most of it, I'm not sure how to post pictures but if you could give me some instruction I'd be happy to. Thank you for the help!

Easiest way to post pics, is to use a photo-hosting site like photobucket or similar (free accounts). Upload your pics to their site, then copy & paste the 'IMG' code url for each pic into your post here. When in the editor here, the url for each image should be enclosed between

at the end of the url, to display the link as a photo in your post. If there's trouble doing that, just copy the link into your post, and members here can click on it to view the photo on the hosting site.

It's also possible to just use the editor here on BF, to upload photos directly to BF as attachments. The downside there is, BF limits the size of the photos (due to the fact they're stored on BF's own servers), so the pics can't be as large or high-res. There are also limits on how many pics can be stored here, in that manner.


David

 

[Knife-Nutty]

Thank you very much ill give it a try.

 

[Knife-Nutty]

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Okay, I wasn't able to see your pics in your post (I just see placeholders), but was able to link to them with the associated URL for each (links seen when I 'replied with quote' via the BF editor). I've included the pics in the quote box here. Looks like you're using a mobile phone app? The mechanics of posting pics via that means look different than what I've been used to doing (posting from a computer). Anyway, here they are:

David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Kinda hard to tell how much patina is there, even on the other two blades. They all seem to look a very light grey. You might (if you want to) try a drop of vinegar on each blade. Let it sit; if it's carbon steel (1095), you should see very DARK oxidation, almost black (maybe even a little bit of red rust) within minutes. A little bit of orange juice will also visibly stain the blade within 5-10 minutes as well (I accidentally discovered this when opening a case of 4 orange juice cartons from Costco, and inadvertently sliced one of the cartons open; this was with my sheepsfoot on my 8OT, BTW).

For comparison, here's my 8OT with 1095 blades (patina applied with hot water + vinegar mixture):


It's possible, based on what I'm seeing in your pics, that you have a stainless 8OT (all three blades). The older 1095-bladed knives oxidize very easily, and it's generally more obvious when it happens, especially when using acidic 'forced' patinas. Stainless can sometimes darken (grey) slightly, in response to vinegar or other acids.


David

 

[Knife-Nutty]

Ok thank you for the help with the pictures and yes as I said the blades wer all very clean to begin with I only shortly started a patina so that I personaly could see if they wer carbon. ( I prefer natural patinas) but in person it is very clear two of the blades are carbon and the sheepsfoot is some type of brushed stainless. It has a different finish even than the other two. Also they felt different in sharpening. I also thought it may have been a replacement but the knife shows no such signs. And the blades all have absolutely perfect walk and talk I'd be very surprised if it were not made this way. WHY it was made this way I'm not sure.

 

[Knife-Nutty]

Thanks for all your help david and after rereading your last post I just wanted to say that the clip and spey are 100% for sure carbon I have many carbon steel knives and am positive on this. Still not sure how that stainless snuck in there though.

 

[Bob W]

It was common for Schrade to occasionally mix up blades between their similar Schrade, Uncle Henry, and Old Timer models. Probably few people notice unless it's the main blade with the tang stamp. The mix-and-matching was especially common during the final days of Schrade's business when seemingly any parts that fit were assembled into knives and sent out the door. Furthermore, although the 8OT was generally carbon steel there were many limited edition Old Timer variations with stainless instead.

So finding a few knives assembled here or there with a miss-matched blades is no surprise at all.

Is this an Old Timer knife with a Schrade blade, or a Schrade knife with Old Timer handles?

Old Timer Classics, one series of Old Timers made with stainless blades, and one of many possible sources of your stainless blade (although this might be a 34OT):

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Personally I'd still try the vinegar-spotting test, as the results seen in the pics would have me wondering (personally) about the other two blades as well. Even in pics, the dark oxide left in doing such a test would be obvious. More so, if some red rust turns up on the steel within the same few minutes' time (not to worry; it cleans up easily with baking soda and/or polishing paste).

The patina shown on my 8OT above is what's left after I cleaned up the really black oxide and a little rust on it (using baking soda).


David

 

[Knife-Nutty]

Ok I am no expert so I'm definitely open to experimenting. The thing that is starnge to me is that if they are all stainless that why would only two react to the mustard and one be so extremely shiny still? Also the mustard was only on for about 15 minutes. I will give the viniger a try asap thank you both.

 

[yablanowitz]

Chances are, two of the blades are carbon and one is stainless. The tang stamp looks like the last one Schrade used before they went under, so it could easily be one put together with whatever parts they had in the final weeks before they closed forever.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Ok I am no expert so I'm definitely open to experimenting. The thing that is starnge to me is that if they are all stainless that why would only two react to the mustard and one be so extremely shiny still? Also the mustard was only on for about 15 minutes. I will give the viniger a try asap thank you both.

I've yet to force a patina on my 8OT's spey and sheepsfoot blades (only did the clip so far), but likely will at some point. The un-patina'd blades do both have some small spotting from incidental exposure to who-knows-what. After seeing how mine reacted to the forced hot water/vinegar, and to incidental acidic contact (like the orange juice), 15 minutes' exposure should be plenty long enough to leave clear stains on blades of 1095 and the satin finish characteristic of Schrade's knives. Polished (mirrored) finishes take a little longer to stain.

The other thing with stronger food acids (vinegar, pickle juice, citrus, etc.) on 1095 and similar carbon steels is, you'll likely find it hard to ignore the smell of the reaction between the two. Very strong & metallic/bitter, and I usually notice that right off, as soon as the acid makes contact with the steel. 1095 will also stain any fruit it touches (usually dark blue/purple, maybe brown/black), and that's an easy way to distinguish the carbon blades from stainless. I've never seen a stainless blade discolor fruit this way.


David

 

[Mack]

I've got an old Schrade Walden 804 that the two clip blades have fabulous patinas and the coping blade is shiny too. I think they just may have snuck in a stainless blade for some reason. It makes it a little more rare I guess. Since they are Swinden Key designs, I will assume they came from the factory that way.
I don't like to assume though.

 

[Knife-Nutty]

Ok lets see if these pictures work as I think they may help, this shows the darker clip next to the shiny sheepsfoot, also I've show the springs which are quite dark, hope this helps sorry for the poor pictures guys you've been a great help.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

The mobile phone app for linking the pics seems not to work for in-thread viewing on my computer (urls aren't compatible, apparently). Still seeing placeholders where the pics would be; anybody else seeing it the same way?

At any rate, I managed to link to the photobucket page and view them there (and found compatible image urls for each). The re-linked pics are in the quote box below:

Ok lets see if these pictures work as I think they may help, this shows the darker clip next to the shiny sheepsfoot, also I've show the springs which are quite dark, hope this helps sorry for the poor pictures guys you've been a great help.

(images re-linked for display in this post)

I do see the spotting on the springs, at least. Other pics of the blades, I'm still not sure.


David

 

[screened porch]

I've got a Schrade Old Timer 440T special edition 2001 in which the clip is stainless and the other 3 blades are carbon (it's a stockman + a little hawkbill). It's the one on the bottom.

 

[ea42]

The 8OT and the 885UH were essentially the same knives (same frame, same blade size), the only difference was that the OT blades were carbon and the UH blades were stainless. As Bob stated above (he sums it all up quite well), it could have been quite possible for one of the UH blades to slip into a pile of OT blades during assembly. It would have been quite difficult to tell the difference between the two. No big deal really, the Schrade stainless is quite good, and if you got it at the flea market I'm sure you likely got a decent price.

Eric