On clones, by genre, a thesis

[Balls Deep]

Well my .02 on this topic. My first knife that got me into knives when I was a kid was a gas station knife with a painted on damascus pattern which I still have. It's probably a clone of something. Over the years as I got more into knives and knife knowledge I started caring more about materials and craftsmanship and these things are now important to me. There are so many great places to send money that I have options.

One of my core beliefs is that good ideas stand on their own and speak for themselves. I feel like as a part of the forum community a part of our were is to be good stewards of knives and helping to lead others to the water so to speak. I believe that if someone is in the knife game and experiences a quality knife, they will likely stick with it as opposed to serial clone purchasing. Also if they do buy clones, which is better for the industry, someone who buys clones and brand name products or someone who buys nothing? I'm distinguishing clones from counterfeits as counterfeits are illegal and blatant law violation.

Unfortunately we all have different practice on education. You can lead a horse to water and let him drink, or beat the crap out of the horse for not drinking. I think that unfortunately that's what happens all too often with clone discussions, and now we've made someone mad and they'll buy clones to stick it to the man, or just be out of the knife game. I can validate though that it can be somewhat boring or obnoxious to see the same clone thread every month and have to respond in a different way. I also acknowledge that there's no rules that say we need to be kind to others.

 

[Danke42]

Yeah, you probably got a butthurt from all that clone hating

You are a real proponent of Alibaba in your Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, & YouTube so I would presume you're speaking from personal experience.

For me it appears some nefarious individual tampered with the circuitry and wiring of my treasured Compy 64; they may have even altered the Winduh XD software itself! I have embarked on a quest only armed with a soldering iron to put the auto-correct to rights. Wish me well!

 

[Standard78]

I am just trying to show that arguments against clones boils down to: "They aren't as good as the original." This is, of course, subjective, and therefore not a good argument. Only you can decide what is best.

How in the hell did you reach this conclusion?

I'll use the Spyderco Paramilitary 2 vs. the Ganzo or Alibaba clone as an example.

A real Paramilitary 2 has years of research and development put into the design and function, legitimate and trustworthy steel used on everything from the blade to the fasteners, a proper heat treat protocol, and real g10 material used as scales.

A cloned/counterfeit Paramilitary 2 has little to no research and development time put into it while using questionable steel products, questionable heat treat protocols and plastic scale material.

I would tell you to prove me wrong, but it would be nearly impossible because there is no way that you can prove that these cloning companies use the actual steels their knives are stamped without having multiple knives analyzed and tested for strength.

Until you provide verifiable evidence to substantiate your claim, these clone/counterfeit knife arguments are valid.

 

[copperheaded]

How in the hell did you reach this conclusion?

I'll use the Spyderco Paramilitary 2 vs. the Ganzo or Alibaba clone as an example.

A real Paramilitary 2 has years of research and development put into the design and function, legitimate and trustworthy steel used on everything from the blade to the fasteners, a proper heat treat protocol, and real g10 material used as scales.

A cloned/counterfeit Paramilitary 2 has little to no research and development time put into it while using questionable steel products, questionable heat treat protocols and plastic scale material.

I would tell you to prove me wrong, but it would be nearly impossible because there is no way that you can prove that these cloning companies use the actual steels their knives are stamped without having multiple knives analyzed and tested for strength.

Until you provide verifiable evidence to substantiate your claim, these clone/counterfeit knife arguments are valid.

What claim? That the value of a knife can only be determined by an individual? Fair enough; start here: https://mises.org/library/human-action-0/html

 

[copperheaded]

What is a better steel: 440C or S35VN? Why?

What is a better handle material: Fake or real G10? Why?

If I think that a PM2 clone in an unknown steel with fake G10 handles is better than a real PM2, then, in fact, the PM2 clone IS better. To me.

You may disagree with my assessment. That doesn't make me wrong.

Bigger picture, like I said, the only sensible argument against clones (as someone here said, knock-offs is a much better term) is to convince others that it is worth spending x-amount for the copied knife for whatever reasons. All other arguments against clones fail.

 

[Armadew]

Explain again how taking something that isn't yours, and without permission, is anything other than stealing.

 

[copperheaded]

Explain again how taking something that isn't yours, and without permission, is anything other than stealing.

There is no stealing. Copying, absolutely. You can't steal an idea. If someone makes a knife that looks exactly like a Buck110 but they call it a LB7, that is not stealing. If they call it a Buck110, that is fraud, a crime, and is detestable.

 

[Standard78]

What is a better steel: 440C or S35VN? Why?

What is a better handle material: Fake or real G10? Why?

If I think that a PM2 clone in an unknown steel with fake G10 handles is better than a real PM2, then, in fact, the PM2 clone IS better. To me.

You may disagree with my assessment. That doesn't make me wrong.

Bigger picture, like I said, the only sensible argument against clones (as someone here said, knock-offs is a much better term) is to convince others that it is worth spending x-amount for the copied knife for whatever reasons. All other arguments against clones fail.

1. S35vn is tougher and takes a better edge. You also can't prove that any of these knockoffs use 440c.

2. G10 is stronger and less prone to damage due to high or low temperatures.

3. If you think a knockoff PM2 is better than a real PM2, you need your head examined.

4. Your assessment doesn't make you right either.

5. My example between a knockoff PM2 vs. a real PM2 should be convincing enough. You can buy a quality knife made with superior materials and proper testing, or you can buy a hunk of shit made with questionable materials made by some moron that has to steal a design because they lack the imagination and drive to develop their own product.

 

[Standard78]

There is no stealing. Copying, absolutely. You can't steal an idea. If someone makes a knife that looks exactly like a Buck110 but they call it a LB7, that is not stealing. If they call it a Buck110, that is fraud, a crime, and is detestable.

Uhhh... that's still stealing.

 

[copperheaded]

1. S35vn is tougher and takes a better edge. You also can't prove that any of these knockoffs use 440c.

2. G10 is stronger and less prone to damage due to high or low temperatures.

3. If you think a knockoff PM2 is better than a real PM2, you need your head examined.

4. Your assessment doesn't make you right either.

5. My example between a knockoff PM2 vs. a real PM2 should be convincing enough. You can buy a quality knife made with superior materials and proper testing, or you can buy a hunk of shit made with questionable materials made by some moron that has to steal a design because they lack the imagination and drive to develop their own product.

You are not tall enough for this ride.

 

[copperheaded]

Uhhh... that's still stealing.

No

 

[Armadew]

Incredible

 

[Standard78]

You are not tall enough for this ride.

A childish response from you isn't surprising.

 

[copperheaded]

A childish response from you isn't surprising.

I've been called worse.

When I say that value is subjective and therefore, there is no better knife, and then you say, "Nuh-uh, this knife is better", then you are an idiot. You have proved my point.

 

[Standard78]

I've been called worse.

When I say that value is subjective and therefore, there is no better knife, and then you say, "Nuh-uh, this knife is better", then you are an idiot. You have proved my point.

Bless your heart.
You're blinded by your own stupidity.

 

[copperheaded]

Bless your heart.
You're blinded by your own stupidity.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[PURPLEDC]

How in the hell did you reach this conclusion?

I'll use the Spyderco Paramilitary 2 vs. the Ganzo or Alibaba clone as an example.

A real Paramilitary 2 has years of research and development put into the design and function, legitimate and trustworthy steel used on everything from the blade to the fasteners, a proper heat treat protocol, and real g10 material used as scales.

A cloned/counterfeit Paramilitary 2 has little to no research and development time put into it while using questionable steel products, questionable heat treat protocols and plastic scale material.

I would tell you to prove me wrong, but it would be nearly impossible because there is no way that you can prove that these cloning companies use the actual steels their knives are stamped without having multiple knives analyzed and tested for strength.

Until you provide verifiable evidence to substantiate your claim, these clone/counterfeit knife arguments are valid.

You are comparing a $25 clone to a $200 knife. In those situations if you think the clone is just as good as the real thing you are insane. But there are clones of customs that cost $150-200 and those knives put many of the USA production knives to shame in the fit finish and features department. When buying knives from china its just like anywhere else. You get what you pay for. And you cant use a $25 piece of crap as the standard for Chinese knife making anymore than you can use a $50 piece of American crap as the standard of USA knife making. Cost is relative. And on the higher end clones, its been shown quite a few times that they do use the materials they claim to use. Right or wrong its the truth.

 

[copperheaded]

You are comparing a $25 clone to a $200 knife. In those situations if you think the clone is just as good as the real thing you are insane. But there are clones of customs that cost $150-200 and those knives put many of the USA production knives to shame in the fit finish and features department. When buying knives from china its just like anywhere else. You get what you pay for. And you cant use a $25 piece of crap as the standard for Chinese knife making anymore than you can use a $50 piece of American crap as the standard of USA knife making. Cost is relative. And on the higher end clones, its been shown quite a few times that they do use the materials they claim to use. Right or wrong its the truth.

Also, price can be considered when determining what is the best knife. To me.

 

[Armadew]

Personal taste is personal taste. I don't think anyone would argue that.

You're arguing that because you're making believe that it's the only valid argument us "anti-copying" folk are making. And then claiming you somehow "win" the debate.

Typical straw-man misdirection.

Saying that "copying" someone else's design without their blessing is somehow not a form of theft, is mind-boggling. It's like saying copying someone else's test answers isn't cheating.

Unfathomably bizarre!

I like to support the people who put the hard work in designing their own knives, are open/honest to their costomers, have materials you can trust, and have a warranty you can count on.

Profiting off someone else's work is at it's base immoral. Supporting immoral practices is shameful.

Even if you somehow believe it's good for the knife industry.... which it isn't.

 

[copperheaded]

Personal taste is personal taste. I don't think anyone would argue that.

You're arguing that because you're making believe that it's the only valid argument us "anti-copying" folk are making. And then claiming you somehow "win" the debate.

Typical straw-man misdirection.

Saying that "copying" someone else's design without their blessing is somehow not a form of theft, is mind-boggling. It's like saying copying someone else's test answers isn't cheating.

Unfathomably bizarre!

I like to support the people who put the hard work in designing their own knives, are open/honest to their costomers, have materials you can trust, and have a warranty you can count on.

Profiting off someone else's work is at it's base immoral. Supporting immoral practices is shameful.

Even if you somehow believe it's good for the knife industry.... which it isn't.

Never claimed to win the debate. People actually are arguing about subjective value. I do believe that all other arguments I have seen fail. Good for you for supporting "the people who put the hard work in designing their own knives, are open/honest to their customers, have materials you can trust, and have a warranty you can count on". Me too.

Copying is not theft:

Theft, in law, a general term covering a variety of specific types of stealing, including the crimes of larceny, robbery, and burglary. Theft is defined as the physical removal of an object that is capable of being stolen without the consent of the owner and with the intention of depriving the owner of it permanently.
theft | law | Britannica.com
https://www.britannica.com/topic/theft