"Ordinary Pocket Knife"?

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Billy12241

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Apr 8, 2011
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Hi all, I had one question about Kentucky's knife law, which states that any "Ordinary pocket or hunting knife is legal to conceal carry without a permit. My question about this is what do they consider 'ordinary'?:confused: Would a knife such as a Spyderco Tenacious or Manix 2 be considered ordinary?
 
This is probably best illustrated using the following text from Kentucky case law:

2003-CA-001260
BUCKINGHAM, J.
AFFIRMING
Date: 5/14/2004
NOT TO BE PUBLISHED WHITE V. COM.
CRIMINAL - Crimes (Concealed weapons)
White, Jr., appeals conviction for misdemeanor crime of carrying a concealed deadly weapon and sentencing him to 30 days in jail. Affirmed.

"Nine knives were found in a search of White’s automobile. A multi-tool with a knife blade was found in his right rear pocket. A butterfly knife and a lockblade tactical knife were found under the front driver’s seat. A tactical knife with a seven-inch blade was found wedged between the front seat and console. A dagger was found unsheathed in the rear of the vehicle. Four additional lockblade tactical knives, one with a curved blade, were found in the center console.
There was sufficient evidence for the jury to determine that each of the three knives in question were not ordinary pocket knives or hunting knives but were deadly weapons. Similarly, the evidence was sufficient as to the expandable baton...

"Having reviewed the evidence, we conclude that the Commonwealth’s evidence in connection with three of the knives and the expandable baton was sufficient to overcome White’s directed verdict motion. These three knives are the butterflyknife, the lockblade tactical knife that could be opened with one hand, and the tactical knife with the seven-inch blade.

"As we have noted, the term 'deadly weapon' includes any knife other than an ordinary pocket knife or hunting knife. See KRS 500.080(4)(c). The statute also indicates a 'illy,nightstick, or club' falls within the definition of 'deadly weapon.' See KRS 500.080(4)(d).

"In Asher v. Commonwealth, Ky.,473 S.W.2d 145 (1971), the court upheld a conviction for carrying a concealed deadly weapon where the trial court instructed the jury that a butcher knife with a sharp-pointed blade approximately six inches in length was a deadly weapon. Id. at 146. In Williams v. Commonwealth, 304 Ky. 761, 202S.W.2d 408 (1947), a conviction for carrying a concealed deadly weapon was upheld on appeal where the trial court determined that a razor was a deadly weapon and did not submit the issue to a jury. 202 S.W.2d at 409.

"We conclude that the evidence was sufficient in this case for the jury to determine that each of the three knives in question were not ordinary pocket knives or hunting knives but were deadly weapons. Similarly, we conclude the evidence was sufficient as to the expandable baton. We also conclude that the evidence was sufficient for the jury to believe that the knives and expandable baton wereconcealed and were 'on or about [White’s] person.' A review of the testimony indicates that both the butterfly knife and a lockblade tactical knife that could be opened with one hand were under the front driver’s seat. In addition, the tactical knife with a seven-inch blade was wedged between the front seat and console. Finally, the expandable baton, which could be extended with a flick of the wrist, was under the front driver’s seat.

"In Delk v. Commonwealth, Ky. 344 S.W.2d 832 (1961), the court held that '[t]he concealment must be such as to prevent persons from seeing the weapon whose vision is not obscured by the carrier’s person or by anything other than the covering used to conceal it.' Id. at 833. In Prince v.Commonwealth, Ky. 277 S.W.2d 470 (1955), the court stated that a weapon is concealed when it is placed in a manner that it cannot readily be seen under ordinary observation. Id. at 472.

"The three knives in question and the expandable baton were clearly concealed. Finally, the knives in question and the expandable baton were concealed on or about White’s person. To be concealed 'on or about his person' means that the items must be 'concealed in such proximity to the person as to be convenient of access and within immediate physical reach.' Collier v. Commonwealth, Ky., 453 S.W.2d 600, 601 (1970). In that case, a conviction for carrying a concealed deadly weapon was upheld when a pistol was found on the floor under the front seat of a car being driven by the defendant. Id. As two of the knives and the expandable baton were found under the front seat and the other knife was found between the front seat and console, we conclude that the evidence was sufficient for the jury to determine that the knives and the expandable baton were on or about White’s person. Given the evidence presented concerning three of the knives in question and the expandable baton, we simply cannot find it clearly unreasonable for the jury to have found guilt in this case. The judgment of the Fayette Circuit Court is affirmed. ALL CONCUR.
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I've read that case many times glistam, but what I'm not sure of is what do they consider tactical? And does one handed opening not make it an ordinary pocket knife?
 
i've asked the same question myself, as far as i know its down to the judgement of the leo/judge on a case by case, haven't seen any evidence otherwise. I'd like to know if anyone knows anything different as well.
 
FYI, that White opinion was not "published", and therefore is not case law in KY. There are limited circumstances in which it can be cited in a legal argument, but it has no value as a precedent.

What it boils down to is that the police, prosecutor, judge and jury must subjectively define "ordinary pocket knife" on a case by case basis. This is not very helpful, I know, but it is what it is. One jury may determine that a Spyderco Military is an ordinary pocket knife, and the next one may say that it is not.

Consider also that one's appearance, demeanor, and deferential behavior will go a long, long way with the police. And if you are all full of "yes sir" and "no sir" when they contact you, the whole judge and jury thing may be avoided to begin with.

Get yourself a concealed deadly weapons license when you reach the age of majority, and most of this becomes moot. Until then, perhaps it is best not to conceal anything that could reasonably be construed as a deadly weapon. JMO. :thumbup:
 
Thanks Powernoodle, and yes I plan on getting a concealed weapons license, just four more years to go :P. And I always try to be respectful to anyone, especially a police officer or something of the sort, and it's not like I'm going to be threatening someone with the knife, I just wanna carry what I collect and put it to use, instead of it sitting in my house collecting dust :(.
 
powernoodle said:
FYI, that White opinion was not "published", and therefore is not case law in KY. There are limited circumstances in which it can be cited in a legal argument, but it has no value as a precedent.

What it boils down to is that the police, prosecutor, judge and jury must subjectively define "ordinary pocket knife" on a case by case basis. This is not very helpful, I know, but it is what it is. One jury may determine that a Spyderco Military is an ordinary pocket knife, and the next one may say that it is not.

Consider also that one's appearance, demeanor, and deferential behavior will go a long, long way with the police. And if you are all full of "yes sir" and "no sir" when they contact you, the whole judge and jury thing may be avoided to begin with.

Get yourself a concealed deadly weapons license when you reach the age of majority, and most of this becomes moot. Until then, perhaps it is best not to conceal anything that could reasonably be construed as a deadly weapon. JMO. :thumbup:
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That's very true. Vague laws like that always make me nervous and there is little one can do other than not get caught in the first place. While I don't live in the same state, I've gone 20 years carrying every manner of blade or weapon and never had any kind of police contact where legality would need to be determined for something I had.
 
I had a cop say my buck 119 in it's sheath in my glove box was a concealed weapon. My brother got pulled over in my car and it was there when he opened it for reg/ins papers. He called me saying the cop took it. On speaker phone I threatened to file a formal theft complaint and to put my "emergency" knife back. He gave it back and left.

It's all a matter of opinion, to me my recon 1 is just a pocket knife but I bet if I pulled it out at the mall to open a phone case or something 98% of people who see it think WTF that's a big ass knife.
 
"As we have noted, the term 'deadly weapon' includes any knife other than an ordinary pocket knife or hunting knife." -I wonder if that applies to all states..
 
i live in KY and have never had a problem with any folding knife... i walk with them clipped to my pocket all of the time. The concealed carry laws also say that in KY it is legal to carry any deadly weapon in any factory installed compartment of your vehicle (locked or unlocked) and it will not be considered concealed. I have a good friend that is a judge and she confirmed this. The key anywhere is "no sir" and "yes sir". If they take my knife i will let them have it without an immediate fuss. Later i will go to the police station, giver the offiucers name and ask for my knife back. I know that at the richmond police department they keep the knives for 90 days and then they become department property. A friend of mine that works in the jailing system used to occasionally give me a few confiscated knives. He told me alot of times officers confiscate knives to protect themselves from potential harm, because they want to keep them themselves, and as a threat of concealed carry to get what they want out of the person they are questioning.
 
Oh I'm very polite with police, always admit to whatever I did and give honest answers. I however will NOT put up with BS like taking my knife without a fight(so to speak)

I get pulled over alot(tint, exhaust, no plate ect) and have only ever got 1 ticket at a checkpoint where the Leo had no choice but to write the ticket.
 
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