Osprey K&T Comparison photos

[varga49]

Phillip, late to the party again!! I really appreciate the results of your Sunday morning analytics. And will read this a couple more times. I don't yet have a patch but I do have a couple of Trail hands that I compare with my 2 Warthogs and 2 Bushboots. I do go by feel always but I really like knowing why. You've really added to my understanding. And now I guess I need a Patch!


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[Warrior108]

Phillip, late to the party again!! I really appreciate the results of your Sunday morning analytics. And will read this a couple more times. I don't yet have a patch but I do have a couple of Trail hands that I compare with my 2 Warthogs and 2 Bushboots. I do go by feel always but I really like knowing why. You've really added to my understanding. And now I guess I need a Patch!


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I've got a nice unused Patch up for sale (hint hint)

 

[M4Super90]

Phillip, late to the party again!! I really appreciate the results of your Sunday morning analytics. And will read this a couple more times. I don't yet have a patch but I do have a couple of Trail hands that I compare with my 2 Warthogs and 2 Bushboots. I do go by feel always but I really like knowing why. You've really added to my understanding. And now I guess I need a Patch!


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I took a while to warm up to it, so it may not be for everyone. I also have 3 Patches, the one shown in 3/32, a TT 1/8 and a SFT 1/8. All are not created equal and I grab for the 3/32 every time. The 1/8 TT is almost as good. I'd love to have a 3/32 in CPM154. It will also probably depend on your hand size. Mine are large enough it's not really a 4 finger knife with the butt of the knife more in my palm. If it were any longer, the squared end would hit me in the pad and I don't like that. I had one of the best looking recluses ever and I did not like the way it felt at all. But, I love the blade profile.

 

[varga49]

I've got a nice unused Patch up for sale (hint hint)

and don't I know it! I'm tapped after paying for the Webill twins, an Arowana and a Kephart...If you still have it in April we'll talk!

 

[Warrior108]

and don't I know it! I'm tapped after paying for the Webill twins, an Arowana and a Kephart...If you still have it in April we'll talk!

SO YOU are the crazy over achiever with the Osage/Bog Oak pair

Nice! I'll trade the Patch for the Bog Oak bolstered Osage.

 

[varga49]

SO YOU are the crazy over achiever with the Osage/Bog Oak pair

Nice! I'll trade the Patch for the Bog Oak bolstered Osage.

Heh heh Jerry! Surely you jest!


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[Warrior108]

Not the best picture for clarity but this gives you a decent idea of size comparison.

 

[D.H.]

Not the best picture for clarity but this gives you a decent idea of size comparison.

Is it my imagination, or does one of those Hunters have a fair bit more belly than the other one?

 

[Warrior108]

Is it my imagination, or does one of those Hunters have a fair bit more belly than the other one?

It would have driven me crazy until I checked so I pulled them both out, outlined one on graph paper and compared the other. The blades are exactly the same. What could be throwing our eyes off is how high the grind goes on one compared to the other. These two Hunters are very identical in every aspect except handle material. The end of the handle/butt is a bit different but its amazing how the handle contours all around match each other.

Good question.

 

[Osprey Knife & Tool]

Is it my imagination, or does one of those Hunters have a fair bit more belly than the other one?

It would have driven me crazy until I checked so I pulled them both out, outlined one on graph paper and compared the other. The blades are exactly the same. What could be throwing our eyes off is how high the grind goes on one compared to the other. These two Hunters are very identical in every aspect except handle material. The end of the handle/butt is a bit different but its amazing how the handle contours all around match each other.

Good question.

Jerry made a great point and I am happy he checked. It gives validity to what I was observing.
I would like to add my observations, I think there are a few things a play here that give the appearance of one having more belly than the other, the top Hunter has a higher grind as well as a more minimal guard, this is what I think gives most of the illusion you see, I also believe that there is an optical illusion at play here, It appears the photo was taken directly above with the focal point towards the center of the photo, as you see each individual knife farther out the image become slightly more distorted as a result of the angle of view becoming greater. I have noticed this phenomenon when I photographed knives and appears to become more apparent with objects in the top foreground of a photograph. I am not sure exactly why this happens or the technical term for it, I have just noticed it while I was trying to execute a similar photograph.

I hope this helps you guys see what I see.

 

[Osprey Knife & Tool]

Not the best picture for clarity but this gives you a decent idea of size comparison.

I think this is a great photograph! I am sure it will help a lot of people out trying to discern dimensions between knives, I also find it useful and find myself analyzing the photograph in similar ways as well. Thank you for sharing and taking the time out to photograph and labeling these, very much appreciated!!!:thumbup:

 

[Osprey Knife & Tool]

Thanks all. Amazing what you can think up when playing with some new knives on a Sunday morning. I guess I have way too much free time and tend to be overly analytical. I could probably just say, this one "feels better" and be done with it.

I think we share a similar trait in regards to being analytical, I tend to analyze things in an abstract manner so it can be hard to convey my thoughts or ideas it a coherent manner. I like reading others points of view no matter how far down the rabbit hole they may go, your effort and message is not lost on me, and would like to see more of this. I personally find it extremely useful, I just need more time to digest it so I can add substance to the discussion.

It is surprising though that the Patch and Trailhand seem to both feel good and are very different designs yet the proportion are similar. I'm going to keep play with some of my favorite users and see is there any consistency to the hypothesis. Still a fun Sunday morning playing with knives....

I look forward to reading more about this, I am sure it will trigger ideas like the last post you made.

 

[varga49]

Jerry made a great point and I am happy he checked. It gives validity to what I was observing.
I would like to add my observations, I think there are a few things a play here that give the appearance of one having more belly than the other, the top Hunter has a higher grind as well as a more minimal guard, this is what I think gives most of the illusion you see, I also believe that there is an optical illusion at play here, It appears the photo was taken directly above with the focal point towards the center of the photo, as you see each individual knife farther out the image become slightly more distorted as a result of the angle of view becoming greater. I have noticed this phenomenon when I photographed knives and appears to become more apparent with objects in the top foreground of a photograph. I am not sure exactly why this happens or the technical term for it, I have just noticed it while I was trying to execute a similar photograph.

I hope this helps you guys see what I see.

As if the lens of the eye didn't fool us enough, the camera lens will certainly do interesting things that show up as images...I've seen this "which item is larger/smaller" many times before. And while the pictures posted by knife makers are better than good, there's nothing like holding one in your hand!

 

[Warrior108]

As if the lens of the eye didn't fool us enough, the camera lens will certainly do interesting things that show up as images...I've seen this "which item is larger/smaller" many times before. And while the pictures posted by knife makers are better than good, there's nothing like holding one in your hand!

That's what she said [emoji12]

 

[ACLakey]

Awesome work! Thanks for the pics.

 

[varga49]

That's what she said [emoji12]

LMAO


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[Osprey Knife & Tool]

Part 1

About 2 years ago Phil (Comprehensivist) spent quite a bit of time coaxing me into giving a Patch a serious try. I finally agreed to carry one when my wife and I went to Yellowstone for two weeks. I've been carry that knife ever since, so that's the EDC I've been comparing various blades to recently. I’ve been trying to identify just exactly what it is that I find useful about the Patch. The functions I use the Patch for are not what I use and require of a field knife or a kitchen knife. Although, a lot of those tasks do overlap. It does perform quite well with notching, ringing, flat cuts etc. and so it’s still a handy knife for detail-oriented bushcraft. It also gets used for small food prep and as an eating tool. Of course, it’s extremely useful in day to day tasks that most of us probably use our EDC for like opening mail, opening boxes, slicing cheese, or eating a steak.

I liked hearing the backstory on this as the introduction, it helped me step inside your shoes (perception) you could say on how you approached this particular situation. I have always believed that a user's mindset dictates a lot in regards to the users relation to the tool at hand.

I do agree with and share the opinion in regards to the usefulness and rightful place of the Puuko style blade. Puukos are great bushcrafting/general purpose blades.
The do however fall short in performance in the finer areas of food prep and dining, IMO this is a more narrow and specialized task for cutlery to excel in, a puuko in a General Purpose/Bushcrafting/Scenario is almost unrivaled.

Take it in the kitchen or the dining room and you will start to find yourself very limited in the usefulness of this design.

To get more granular, what’s the exact quality a shorter blade height Patch-ish knife has that I find so useful? Perhaps it’s that I’ve been carry this one long enough I’ve be comfortable with it and I want others to be more similar. As most know, Chris’ K-line (Kitchen) variants provide a little different ergonomics which allow additional clearance of the hand between the handle and cutting board. That assumes that the majority of the blade length is used and is parallel to the cutting surface. That is far from the case of the Patch’s design, which is more or less straight and reduces this clearance to almost none if trying to use the rear part of the blade.

Since I have begun designing and making my own knives, I have noticed my relationship and how I view them has changed. I look and analyze every blade I pick up, I make mental notes of what I like and dislike, what I find useful or just redundant. As I use and analyze my designs in other areas I also use the same approach, Somewhere along the line all of these experiences and mental notes coalesce and manifest themselves in my designs.

You and a handful of others deserve a little bit of the credit, by sharing your thoughts and preferences which expanded my understanding and took me outside of my previous understanding.
I had never intended the Raptor to become a primary kitchen knife but I was happy to evolve the pattern to compliment the usefulness in this area

For an EDC, I’ve noticed the way I use it means the majority of the work is done in with the first inch or two of the blade. With most tasks, there is no cutting board for clearance, but the “angle of attack”, i.e. the relationship of the handle to the part of the portion of the blade that is doing the work, does have an impact on what using the knife feels like. Chris mentioned in the “Questions for the maker’ thread Chris has indicated he has a formula he starts with when designing knives and I’d like to know more about what components, if any, the formula pertains to.

The handle clearance and angle of the "Attack" as you put it is the foundation I have been using to design these new variants and profiles.
I don't really have a set formula in relation to designing knives. I do draw inspiration from the things around me, a lot of them not even being knife related, such as animals, other tools, cars, firearms etc... It is more of a creative expression at first, with the mindset and intention at the forefront. After I brainstorm and idea I then I break it down and refine each part in relationship to it usefulness and overall aesthetic value to the completed piece. Sometimes the designs come out effortless and other times It is a challenge to convey ideas to matter. After I am pleased with the general shape and purpose of a knife I will start to sketch a template, once I get a design on paper I transfer it to a piece of 1/8' Micarta and profile it out. Sometimes after I do this I immediately go back to the drawing board other times I need to take a little bit of here and a little bit of there so it feels right in the hand.
I usually carry this stencil around for a few days playing with it and studying it, mimicking the intended application. Once I am satisfied with all of the above, only then will I transfer it to steel.
I am always analyzing and refining my designs new and old, the longer the profile has been around the less I tend to tweak it, some designs I have made have need very little tweaking from conception, I guess it is just how the dice roll.

The relationship of handle to the part of the portion of the blade that is doing the work made me think of chord and camber on an airfoil. I found a diagram that shows this relationship on a wing:

This picture took me a few times of going back and forth reading and applying it to my understanding and knowledge, I think it was the airfoil comparison that through me off, because I have little to no experince in this subject. Once I wrapped my head around it I understood what you were trying to relay to me. And the bells inside my head started going off.

I admit I’m WAY overthinking this (or have been hanging out with Phil too much ), but for an EDC the part of the blade doing work and the angle it creates to the user, may be a far more important quality than how much cutting surface at the rear of the blade you can use without banging your knuckles or hitting the guard - i.e. the K variant design seems to add how much blade you can have parallel to the surface at one time, rather than how much belly you can use at a comfortable angle. Thus, for EDC functions you can have a relative straight knife overall and still have a lot of usable blade at a comfortable angle. Probably the reason the puukko design has been around for so long.

So I picked a single function – slicing a steak. I’ve made a comparison of all the OK/T knives plus my original Patch with the thought of slicing a steak in mind and the resulting handle angle. I took the knives above and put the tip on an plane denoted by the X axis of the grid and rocked the knife back until a point 1” back from the tip (blue dot) touched the cutting surface. You could do this at any point of the blade, but I did this 1” back because most of the knives here share similarity to that point and then that’s where the cutting surface geometry starts to diverge (more on that later).


Raptor

I think for me this was the most useful and insightful part of your thread, it allowed me to zero in on a certain task, as well as relaying a scenario and setting that was familiar to me and easily recreated.

I took it upon myself to recreate your photographs with the 3 Raptor Variants I currently have



Original Raptor profile as pictured above

Hosted on Fotki




(K) Raptor-

Notice how the contact portion of the blade is brought back and more inlie with the natural cutting edge of the blade. The handle is also raised up in relation to the the other Origonal Raptor, But the way I arrange the handte it is actually more in line with the natural angle providing a less acute angle grip of a Kitchen/Personal Dining knife.

Hosted on Fotki


(K) Raptor Gen2

This profile expresses these traits more than the 2 above, bringing the cutting edge closer to a more useful and centerline contact point, The handle angle on this profile actually deviates farther upward in relation to the other two, but if you notice in the photo above it actually lessens the angle of back portion of the handle even more in relation to the cutting edge, cool little optical illusion and geometry trick I figured out with the Original Raptor Design that when it manifested itself in the trailing point, but the tip being still centerline with the indexing of the handle. I took these lessons along with the information from you guys and provided above and came up with these 3 variations.


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The pictures below help better explain the relationship between the handle and the cutting edge I was explaining above.
I arranged these templates in the position I designed them to be oriented and used in relation to the cutting surface

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The last photograph here I line the templates up as Phil(Comprehensivist) did in a prior post to illustrate even though the handle and blade relationship has changed the blade shape remains virtually Identical

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More reply with pictures to come with the part 2 of this post.....

 

[Osprey Knife & Tool]

Part 2




Farther down the rabbit hole, in direct response to your post. I had been playing with these Ideas for awhile prior to your post but you post made a lot of things click into place for me. Or atleast this in my interpretation of a more personal dining oriented knife.

I decided to separate this from the rest of the post and my prior response. Playing around with the Raptor design gave me the Gen2 I have not gotten this on steel yet, so I am not 100% positive I will keep the changes until then. I am confident I will like the changes and view them as improvements once I have one completed. But I think this is the last of the major design changes to the Raptor linage for now.

Your chosen focus got me thinking of designing an entirely different knife geared more to personal dining, such as cutting steak and vegetables in a seated position.
The (K) Raptor performs well in the standing position but when seated at a table preparing to dine, I thought I could make something more appropriate and ergonomically pleasing.

I could have settled for a more generic run of the mill shape but where would the fun in that be. I plan on coming up with some more generic designs in a later date for those who don't find these lines appealing


The First two pictured here are primarily Personal Dining/Steak knives.
The last and smaller one straddling more along the lines of the (K) variants with a focus not entirely in the Kitchen. More like and EDC paring knife if there is such a thing

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Next I lined the photo up on the cutting mat with the orientation for the intended angle of attack. Both sides of the stencil is picture because the pencil lines can deceive your eyes in regards to the overall silhouette



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[Comprehensivist]

I want to circle back to Phillip’s (M4Super90) excellent comparison thread above (on page 3) to add some comments.

As Phillip alluded to in his text, he and I have enjoyed times together comparing many handmade knives and discussing what details make certain models favorite users and others not so much. We share an analytical approach to figure out objective standards that define why we like certain knives. I think it is fair to say we both came away from those experiences with a better understanding of what works and why. While we have similar taste in aesthetics and features, the difference in our hand sizes sometimes leads us to draw different conclusions at times.

I appreciate the fresh objective perspective that Phillip presented here by incorporating triangles, chord lines, and camber as mathematical reference points that help me better understand the design flow and interaction of all the curved lines that make up these beautiful and functional handmade knives.

I am going to borrow a few of Phillip’s photos specific to the Patch and Trail Hand to explain how this format is helpful to me. I have first hand experience owning both of those models.

The first two photos below show me why I was attracted to the taller curved blade and handle design of the Trail Hand. The blade is versatile for its length because it has enough belly to adapt to various angles of attack that come in to play with day-to-day activities. You lead into the task with the tip, middle, or back of the blade as required. In regard to the handle, I always “felt” that the Trail Hand offers great leverage for its size. The two photos show a distinct difference in how much of the blade/handle falls above & below the chord line. The arch of handle/spine of the Trail Hand results in a higher camber that explains why that model feels so comfortable to bear down on.

The blade profile and the chord dimension are more similar than any other Patch pairing. However, the spine and the deviation from the chord line are quite different.

I can use the above photos and the ones below to explain what features I like or don’t care for on both models.

Patch features I like:
1) Straighter blade spine results in a higher blade tip with more belly for a short blade.
2) Blade shape that offers more angle of attack variety by virtue of its increased belly vs. a similar size Fiddleback Hiking Buddy.
3) Handle is very “open” and maneuverable feeling with its shallow “m” contours on the bottom.
4) Conservative forward angle tilt from the top of the pommel to the bottom does not shorten the usable length of the bottom of the handle which contributes to its open feeling.

Patch features I am not fond of:
1) Squarer corner on the top of the pommel hits the soft fleshy part of my palm in many grips. This creates a distracting hot spot for me.
2) Straighter handle spine that does not mold to my palm as well as arched handles do.

Trail Hand features I like:
1) Taller blade height with nice curvature and belly for its size. Almost guardless, but not quite.
2) Arched handle profile that fits comfortably in the palm of my hand when bearing down on it.
3) Taller handle height at pinky and ring finger locations for increased grip strength and leverage.
4) Rounded butt on the top of pommel.

Trail Hand features I am not fond of:
1) Aggressive forward rake (or tilt) from top of pommel to bottom which limits grip length and mobility on bottom portion of handle.
2) While I like the signature first finger notch handle design on many of Chris’ smaller models, it is less open feeling and more limiting to employing several grip options than the Patch is to me.

You can see the angle the handle has between the cutting surface is different, but it’s the “chord” dimension – from the contact point of the blade to the contact point in your palm at the rear of the handle that I find interesting. Let me show you what I mean. I’ve measured this with the Patch, shown as the chord dimension “A”. This allows you to measure B & C. Compare the Patch and the Trailhand on blade profile in the next pic and then the relationship of the contact points in the following two pics:

Here is an old in hand photo of the Patch that shows where the top corner of the pommel hits my palm:




Here is a photo of the Patch’s larger brother the Leuku that shows how the straighter handle spine rests on the sides of my palm, but not the middle. Given the choice of making my palm conform to the straight spine of a handle or selecting one a curved spine that naturally fits the shape of my palm, I’ll choose the latter nines times out of ten.

 

[Comprehensivist]

Going a little further down the rabbit hole as Chris says, I want to clarify that there are features I am not fond of and features that become deal breakers to me. Sometimes the distinction between the two is not revealed until I compare one or more knives to each other. Such was the case with the Patch for me. It was one of my favorite users for a long time until multiple comparisons with my original Raptor made me realize that there were clear advantages for me in the Raptor that caused me to part ways with my Patch(s).

The Raptor offers an “S” curve spine from tip to pommel that yields a sharp tip, nice curved sweep to the blade, and a longer arched handle contour that feels more natural in my palm. That arch in the handle allows me to alter the angle of attack feel by changing between two primary grips.

Standard grip:




Forward grip:




When I combined that with other comparisons like weight (3.7 oz. for the 1/8” SFT O1 Patch vs. 3.88 oz. for the longer, thinner, and more comfortable 3/32” SFT CPM 154 Raptor), my choice seemed very clear. That is how the Patch became another victim of the Black Widow Raptor for me. YMMV! The Patch fits Phillip’s hand very well, so he was more than happy to trade for my last Patch. This confirms the point that we are all unique in our needs and preferences. It also emphasizes the value of comparisons because they reveal what is important to each of us uniquely.

Going to the next level down the rabbit hole..

Anyone who has been buying, using, and/or collecting knives for a while has at least one or more knives that make you feel like you just caught lightning in a bottle. You know what I am talking about because that knife feels like it was custom built just for you. Sometimes understanding the combination of features that makes it all come together in a particular knife is not fully revealed until you compare it to other models or even other handmade examples of the same knife that allow you to identify the subtle differences that make that one knife stand out from the other(s.) That is why I place frequent emphasis on comparisons in my reviews.

After four years of serious knife study and over a hundred handmade knives, I have identified some preferred features that I look for when I consider buying a new knife. Here is my preference list:

Blade Features:

Steel choice in order of preference based on actual experience: Supersteels (3V, 4V, etc.), Stainless (S35VN, CPM154, S30V), 52100, D2, A2, O1...

Steel thickness: 3/32” for most, 1/8” for some, 5/32” for a few, 3/16” and thicker for none...

Tang Type: Tapered tangs preferred. Skeletonized full tangs in thin steels are OK too. Non-skeletonized full tangs are a no-go for me...

Grind Type: Convex or flat grinds are my first choice. Scandi of scandi-vex in limited applications only.

Guards: I prefer guardless blades in most applications. Just to be clear, I don't like blades where the front of the guard extends below the back of the cutting edge. A built-in guard area at front of the handle that protects my hand from slipping forward is OK as long as it doesn't extend below the back of the cutting edge.

Finish on Flats: Textured flats are a big plus. Aggressive Spalting is a close second. Tumbled or acid washed is a neutral option to me. Fine sanded or polished flats make me not want to use the knife (so it will be sold.)

Blade profiles: I own and like; spear points, drop points, and relieved drop points. I have phased out Wharncliffs or straight edge designs for my uses. In case you are wondering what a “relieved drop point” is, that is the Raptor or Fiddleback Bourbon Street Skinner blade profile. Despite common misconception, neither of those models is a trailing point.

*Deal Killer: A long unsharpened ricasso area is a big negative to me. I call this area "dead space." My belief is that functional knives should only be useable handle space or sharpened edge with minimal dead space in-between the two.

Handle Features:

Shape of spine: Arched (within reason) vs. straight to provide a more natural fit to my palm.

Shape of bottom: Shallow “m” curve with centered or slightly forward positioned palm swell to accommodate good grip maneuverability. Handles that go from a tall pommel swell height to a shallow ring finger height and a severe hook on the back end are deal killers to me.

Pommel shape: No sharp edges, points, or corners to provide pressure points. Rounded top preferred along with at least a minimum bottom radius. Conservative angle from top to bottom so as not to reduce the usable length and grip maneuverability of the bottom of the handle.

Balance: Neutral balance is a big plus on 4" to 5" models. Some handle weighted bias on smaller knives is expected. Excessively handle heavy knives don't last long in my collection.

Cross section: Taller elliptical shape from front to back for good torque control. This is especially important to me in the ring and pinky finger section of the handle. If my ring and pinky finger feel like they are just floating over the handle instead of contributing grip strength and control, then something is wrong with that design to me. I like taller elliptical handles that are not too thin.


Speaking of taller handles, here are three of my favorite examples. They are all Fiddlebacks. What I really like about each of these models is the height at the back end that provides more gripping power to my pinky and ring finger.

(R to L: Sneaky Pete, Bush Hermit, Bourbon Street Skinner)




The tall height of the BH handle feels very secure and provides great torque control. Note: My finger tips don’t touch my palm in a hammer grip, so those of you with longer fingers should find this handle very appealing.




The above are my unique preferences after years of trial and error. Your preferences may be completely different and that is perfectly OK. I would love to hear what your preferences are. I have not found any knives yet that fit perfectly with all my preferences. Chris does a great job of meeting the majority of my preferences , which is why I focus most of my current wish list on his knives. I have to say that the "K" Raptor is the nicest hand made knife I have purchased so far in this regard.




Getting all the way back to Phillip’s premise for starting the thread, he said:

...I predict the Trailhand will quickly become a favorite.

I understand Phillip's criteria for saying that and I agree completely. The Trail Hand is my 2nd favorite OK&T model behind the Raptors. The only reason I sold my first one was because it had a beautiful wood handle that I would not use. A nice synthetic handled Trail Hand is high on my wish list right now because it is an extremely versatile knife in my opinion.

Phil