OT Rant; Why I dislike HK Firearms

too many things today are centered around image. I used to carry a .357 when I worked in a jewelry center in Little Saigon. Only one other guy carried a wheel gun. All the other guys carried tupperguns. I got razzed for carrying the "cannon" but I could outshoot all but one guy.

Another "image" that makes me laugh is the Escalade craze. Urban hipsters take these things and put DVD/surround sound in their leather/power everything luxury SUVs and slap on 20" rims and skinny tires and turn a TRUCK into an austentatious STATION WAGON. I don't get it.

Paying $40 for a tee shirt because is says "Armani"? I don't get it.

Starbucks on EVERY corner. :rolleyes: I'm in the wrong place I think.

Frank
 
I'm with munk on this tirade. I never understood the Beretta thing. Big grip, long trigger reach and it was supposed to accommodate our "smaller" service people. Huh? I'm not petite and it feels like a brick in my hand:mad:
Government contracts don't make much sense to anyone except those who make the humongous profits.
I don't know how Ruger blew that one. Must have been something we'll never know about that happened in some congressional committee. Ruger could make the best service pistol ever, in my opinion.
 
Danny, I hadn't heard the carbine ammo explanation, but do know the Ruger and SMith did not fail under the same circumstances.

No one is saying that HK and Sig and Beretta aren't neat guns; I'm just saying as this is an American military we should buy American as long as our domestic industry can offer a fine product. It can and has.

btw- I think the Colt 1911 is name based overpricing.




munk
 
Hm. Well. H&K will soon be in America. (This article does not mention at least one of the reasons: for the last 10 years, there have been restrictions on what rifles can be imported; building in the US will enable a manufacturer to build rifles that could not be imported.)

H&Ks typically *are* good- but, the HK-91 is no better than the FN-FAL (which would have been what Germany used, too, if Belgium had enabled them to license and make them in Germany, instead of going with the CETME design). As Tamara (Glock Talk, TFL, THR, etc) says, "The HK-91 is fine for an $800 sheet-metal rifle"! And it has the ergonomics of a brick, vs. what has been described as "the world's best-balanced battle rifle".

For a variety of reasons*, most "high-speed" units that are on/ahead of the curve are going with M4-style carbines, instead of pistol-caliber subguns, including MP-5s. *most especially penetration- more vs. SBA, less in structures

I like Berettas, and I dislike most Ruger autos, but that's mostly an aesthetic complaint. All handgun calibers are underpowered- less carbine rounds such as the .44 Mag- so there's not really much difference in whether one uses 9mm or 11.7mm, especially when a handgun is waaaaaay down the list of priorities in mil service, and when all your allies use the 9. Hell, the rifle doesn't make many kills, much less the handgun.

If I'm counting correctly, I have owned 26 handguns, so far. I've probably shot the Glocks and my 9mm 1911 best. (For you purists, it's a high-cap, too! :p )

munk, I think you're talking about the Czech Sa. 25.

I'd love a MAR. http://www.isayeret.com is a great, very informative site, but apparently it's now subscription-only. Alas.

John
 
Im with Bri-
what we are talking about with Ruger is a handgun meeting or exceeding accuracy standards (which are not terribly high with the military sidearm) and would outlast anything ever fielded. Your grandchildren might concievably use a Ruger when they enlisted.


munk
 
SilverFoxKnows said:
. . . Starbucks on EVERY corner. :rolleyes: I'm in the wrong place I think.

Lewis Black has a great routine about that . . . LOL every time I see it.

Munk:

In Ordnung! Lots of hype, mystique, Teutonic Superiority Attitude,and image going on there with those big 'ol auto pistols and those sexy little SWAT FA MP5s. But . . .

H&K (and SIG, Beretta, and CZ) = Lotsa bits and pieces and springs and pins to break, lose, etc.

1911, BHP, Glock (sorta) = Not so many bits and pieces.

1911, BHP = Really simple to tear down in the field without tools and a washtub to collect all the parts when they fall out during disassembly.

JMO,

Noah
 
Here is a plan I might go with; if the new Soviet rifle is as good as initially promised, (and what is??) buy the license from the Bankrupt Soviets and make that here!!!! (after Ruger or whomever refnies it)

both recoil and gas piston operated- two bullets in the barrel at same time going to virtually the same point of impact. The History channel Tales of the Gun thought it was the Cat's Pajama's but what do they know?


munk
 
I'm not an H&K fan....I'll never own another one.(and I even pronounce it right! coke! coke! coke! ha!)

First expensive rifle I'd owned was an H&K SL-7...totally unreliable jamamatic piece of garbage. Bolt handle wasn't very sturdy, etc. After having purchased it I heard story after story about them breaking and malfing in courses, like Gunsite. From what I saw I believed it.

I called H&K about my reliabilty complaint. Horribly condescending customer service, but they'd fix their bad weapon for a scant $60 an hour. Bear in mind Glock and Sig the same year had repaired their weapons for free that same year. (Sig, even when it was my own fault...well...technically the previous owners)

From what I've heard the SL-7 is a PC version of the 91/93 which leads me to wonder why the fuss over it. I traded in the SL-7 for an M1A, and later that year owned a Springfield SAR-48 (FN-FAL) Both of them were wayyyy better than that H&K could have ever been,fresh out of the box.

I also later on purchased my wife a Remington 742 with a couple ten round mags...also far superior to the H&K.

There's alot of American gun companies that could do better given half a chance.


I was also wonderong....Any body have information on where and how the new carbine was developed? I've heard the machine gun bill of '86 has horribly stifled the development of military weapons here in America. From what I've seen, I can believe it.
 
I want a firearm that's resistant to rust, is easy to maintain, always goes bang, and shoots as accurately as I hold. That's all that I ever have, and ever will, ask of a firearm. (And the first one is flexible.) After that, it's all about how little I can pay to get it. I ended up with the ones that I have. I'm happy with them.

HK? I like them, but not enough to pay that much. Maybe when I get a little better at shooting and make a little more money, but not now. Other things suffice.

I'm not going to rehash the whole 1911/45 vs. M9/9mm debate - that carcass has been flogged too much already. The government made its decision and has stood by it. If Beretta had not won the contract, SIG would have. (In fact, SIG still got a small piece of the action.) It's water under the bridge. The 1911 works. The Beretta works. The .45 works. The 9mm works. If the shooter isn't hitting it doesn't matter anyway.

Why the switch to 9mm in the first place? I've got a theory on that; I believe that I've shared it here before. I've always thought that the American military in particular and NATO in general would be very well served with the S&W .40 caliber for a pistol chambering but I'm not paid for my opinions.

But the rifle? I agree 110% with 50 Freak. When used in the format that Stoner intended, the caliber and rifle perform as advertised.
 
If Beretta had not won the contract, SIG would have. >>>>>>>> Satori

We did not need cruise missle bases in Austria. This is not about whether or not Sig, Beretta and HK make good weapons, only that I do not wish to pay for them.

I once emailed HK with a question about a clamp that held a AR bolted to a jeep or other vehicle. They not only would not sell this item to the public, being reserved for military or police, but they would not even answer my email about it, being as how I was neither. Suffice to say, HK is not a Second Amendment supporter.

munk
 
I owned a P7M10, a very expensive very accurate very reliable very heavy pistol. I regret selling it... the polymer USP .45 was decently accurate, very reliable, kinda pricey. Right now I'm looking for a good 1911. No more polymer for me, but that's another story. H&K does have a cult following, and many say the MP5 jams a lot- I wouldn't know, but I'd believe it.
I don't own a 1911 yet- looking for a Springer Milspec- but the only thing making me wary is how a lot of 1911 owners keep saying "500 rounds to break it in" which makes me wonder why they can't just make an old style 1911 without fancy add-ons that works? My USP had one stovepipe in 1000 rounds, my P7 never had a failure.
I assume it's similar to the Stoner "issues" where they keep shortening the barrel, etc and expecting it to perform as intended. I think that is what has led people to H&K, Sig, Glock and other blacktical plastical pistols, they seem to work well out of the box without bells and whistles. I'm sure they have as many problems as the average 1911 or other American pistol, but the hype has made them seem failproof.
 
munk said:
We did not need cruise missle bases in Austria. This is not about whether or not Sig, Beretta and HK make good weapons, only that I do not wish to pay for them.

What is this about? The policies of the German government or the policies of a German company? This seems like two seperate issues to me. If this is the case, we shouldn't confuse them.
 
When I was in 9th grade I had a minor obsession with HK. Largely due to the MP5. Anyway, in art class we had an assignment to paint a design on a mirror - I did the HK logo cause it was super cool.

Afterwards my art teacher asked me what it was and I said the logo for a gun manufacturer. She almost sh*t her pants. :D :D This was pre-pre Columbine days, luckily for me ... otherwise I'm sure more than a few phone calls would have been made.


~ MamPoo5 ~
 
Satori-
huh? I have no wish to support a heavily subsidized industry in Germany when we have more than adequate products here. Further, it is very difficult to seperate politics of a nation from it's industry- just ask China how many trade agreements with the US it has lied about while we enrich China and its industry?



munk
 
As I enter geezerhood, and look back over a satisfying 28 year career with DEA and its predecesor agencies (FBN & BNDD) I got to use most anything my heart desired. Personally, there is only one criterion that is non-negotiable, and that is absolute reliability. Virtually all handguns I owned were capable of palm sized accuracy at 25 yards, and many would beat that. But, any handgun that showed itself as having even occasional malfunctions instantly became trading stock after a couple tries to rectify the problem.

For nearly twenty of those years, I religiously carried a S&W model 29-2 in 44 mag, not with the heavy factory loads, but rather a 3/4 throttle load of 10.5 grains of Unique under 240 gr JHP's (usually Hornadys). This gave me the requisite palm sized group when fired for time (6 rounds, reload, and 6 more in 25 seconds). The above load I have reduced to 10.2 grains in recent years for better accuracy and approx. 1,100 fps. Then DEA internal policy changed, and I was forced to retire my 29 as a casualty of our kinder , gentler society.

I very briefly flirted with a couple of 9mms and a 10mm (not a 40), before rediscovering what my dad and uncle knew from their time in WWII; the 1911 45 rocks! I now have five of 'em, and four function flawlessly ( I have an unfired DEA/FBN 50th Anniversary that will remain unfired during my lifetime ). I do not think it was a fluke that DEA picked the 1911 as their commemerative. If I can't do the job with the 45, it probably doesn't need done. I note with ammusement that many Special Ops units both in law enforcement and the military are quietly going back to the 1911. For absolute functional reliability, I will stack my Wilson Professional Model against whatever you bring to the party. Screw H&K.
 
:confused: :confused: :confused:

While I try to buy American when I can, American firearm manufacturers don't offer a hell of a lot of variety in cutting-edge weaponry (not that I can afford such things, but someday...). With the exception of Ruger, do any American-owned companies make non-1911 platforms that can compete with Glock/HK/SIG etc, or non-AR15 platforms? If you think the HK is overly complex, look inside a S&W auto sometime! :)

How many American companies sell firearms made in America, anyway? Here's what I could come up with:

Winchester- owned by FN, possibly (?) American made (as are M16's);
Browning- made in Japan (?);
Springfield Armory- mostly (?) made in Brazil and assembled here;
Kel-Tec- American owned and made;
Smith and Wesson- American-owned again, and American made except for the SW series;
Kimber- American owned and made;
Remington- American owned and American made;
Ruger- American owned and made, despite the late Bill Ruger's political pandering;
CZ, Tikka, Sako, Para-Ordnance, FN, SIG, Glock, HK, Taurus etc are all foreign owned and manufactured.

Who else?

Best,
Jeremy
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
For nearly twenty of those years, I religiously carried a S&W model 29-2 in 44 mag, not with the heavy factory loads, but rather a 3/4 throttle load of 10.5 grains of Unique under 240 gr JHP's (usually Hornadys). This gave me the requisite palm sized group when fired for time (6 rounds, reload, and 6 more in 25 seconds). The above load I have reduced to 10.2 grains in recent years for better accuracy and approx. 1,100 fps.

A man after my own heart. The few times I've carried a firearm for protection, it was a 3" 29 Lew Horton Custom. I always felt very comfortable with it.

I like HKs, and I like Berettas. While the whole 1911/Beretta thing wasn't of interest to me, it always struck me as odd that a country that produces as MANY kinds of unique firearms as the USA, couldn't find an American company to build a military sidearm for it's armed forces.
 
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