OT Rant; Why I dislike HK Firearms

This is my opinion only, and not based on inside knowledge :rolleyes: I think perhaps that after 60 or 70 years of excellent service from the 1911, military authorities believed that they would be considered backward (? reactionary ?
nonprogressive ? over conservative ?) if they continued to utilize an older but solid performer, when newer designs ( ? sexier ? ) were available. I think perhaps the appearance of advocating newer technology is politically favorable. I am convinced that this was the case when they chose a .223 over a serious battle rifle. I rest my case, and retire for the night, as school starts early tomorrow :D
 
God loves the Wilson 45's, but You gotta have a trust fund to buy one!
They run about 2000$ apiece, right?
 
JR42 said:
:confused: :confused: :confused:

How many American companies sell firearms made in America, anyway? Here's what I could come up with:

Winchester- owned by FN, possibly (?) American made (as are M16's);
Browning- made in Japan (?);
Springfield Armory- mostly (?) made in Brazil and assembled here;
Kel-Tec- American owned and made;
Smith and Wesson- American-owned again, and American made except for the SW series;
Kimber- American owned and made;
Remington- American owned and American made;
Ruger- American owned and made, despite the late Bill Ruger's political pandering;
CZ, Tikka, Sako, Para-Ordnance, FN, SIG, Glock, HK, Taurus etc are all foreign owned and manufactured.

Who else?

Best,
Jeremy
Click to expand...

Winchester is owned by Browning now. Corporate headquarters for both companys is here in Utah. Brownings guns are made all over the world. Here is a quote from their site: "Most Browning guns were made in Belgium by F.N. until the mid '70s when some production was shifted to Miroku in Japan. Today's Browning firearms are made in either Belgium, Portugal, Japan or in the United States." More information can be found here: Where are Browning Firearms made? Winchester Rifles are also made here, in Europe and Japan, same as the Brownings. Just thought you guys would like to know. :)

AS for the topic at hand; I agree with Munk, would love to see the US military use pistols designed and made here. Ruger or Springfield are the two companys that I'd like to see get government contracts. Have handled both and love them!!

Heber
 
I try not to post in gun threads, but having made the mistake, here goes-

I had to have a .45 in the eighties. Went for Ruger P-90 after many, many articles about the accuracy & engineering. Gun reflected good engineering in it's good looks, as well as numerous reports from the field.

Maybe it was accurate, I'll never know. The trigger was horrible. I'd get a pinwheel with one shot, miss the paper with the next. And a spring in the mag well broke or fell out, that was the clincher. I ordered three, seeing it as a design flaw. Used 2.

Traded it for a High Standard .22- no regrets. The Mini-14 (this is where I will get dinged) well, I'd rather depend on IT than the AR-15. Mine has never jammed once in 20 years... no, of course not as accurate... AHHH, a grey square just hit me!

I just wish the Ruger CF auto pistols were better- my SIG 229 likes me and so does a friends USP .45 and my WWII .45 1911 vet.

Made in America is always best. We're close- let's get better.


Ad Cautious-ium-opinioni-adium.
 
Hey, you got my vote!
I love the Mini-14.
I've had three of them over the years and they were all great.
I even had the rare Mini-14 in .222.
 
My friend had a P85 that was terrible. That was Ruger's learning curve. But a single P90 does not a entire line make. I've never heard of so many problems with one. Certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen. Ruger makes great revolvers but I've had a few small problems- still recomend Ruger revolvers.

The darn Mini 14 works and is more reliable in sand than an AR. They had a larger 308 version but it could not satisfy Bill Ruger and he did not release it. A few individuals do own some of the prototypes.

I think with sidearms you'd have to look to Springfield, Kimber, Ruger or Smith to come up with something suitable for the military. I'm hesitant to recomend Colt. For long arms, I don't see why the list does not include Savage, Marlin, Remington, Win, Ruger and Browning.

munk
 
Wow, I actually agree with Munk about gun stuff, that may be a first. :D

But since Benelli split from H&K, there's not a single item in H&K product line that I'm interested in.

Closest to contention is G36, and I'll probably never get to fire a real one so who cares. When they come out with new stuff like the UMP I am briefly interested in the design and style, until I remember it's a pistol caliber carbine. Zzzzz.
 
HK is OK. I bought one in 40 S&W, but will not buy another because for less money Glock does better for me. GLOCK ME.
 
Yeah, the only "HK" product I own is the HK-Benelli M3. Quite a shotgun in either pump or semi auto.

But I really really like my Glocks. And my FAL is the rifle I usually carry with my G's when I'm in competition.

Getting back to the Beretta breaking issue. Your sort of right about the carbine ammo. More like, the Beretta was being used around the world by our military. And sometimes it was being used with the local 9mm which is made a little hotter than the homegrown 9mm. It was like shooting +P+ loads all the time. And the US made Beretta's used a cheaper steel than their Italian counterparts. Hence the US Berettas 92F's would develop a crack in the slide and a couple of time flew back at the shooter when he fired the hot loads. These stories got back to the rank and file, and if a soldier can't trust his weapon, what can he trust. So Beretta toughened up the slide in the 92F's and changed the designation to 92FS.

P.S. My idea of the perfect rifle. Also happens to be mine too... :D :D

FAL007.jpg
 
Well guys,I carry an H&K P7PSP,& love it! As for .45 I went the route,I'll take my Detonics(but it's a little heavy to carry all the time).Rug Mini 14,comes single shot,triple shot & ROCK & ROLL! Don't tell me it doesn't either!!I made my SRT friend's triple, R&R,he didn't like the Mini.S&W .357,I'll take my Dan Wesson 357 & whip the S&W.Yeah ,I have a S&W a little Airweight.As for .45 a NEW one I want to try is the Dan Wesson.45.You guys crying about how expensive the H&K is...how about the $$$ you pay to CUSTOMIzE or buy your CUSTOM 45!!! Friend who introduced me to H&K carried a P9S he was SF.PSP,is it "perfect"nope,gets HOT after rapid firing 4 mags.Is a Glock good,YEP,fired a couple but they were minis & didn't fit my hands.Guys,ALL guns have problems ALL GUNS!! I just carry what I like,trust,& carry! YEP!! I'M ONE OF THOSE SNOBS!LOL!
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
@Pan Tau, thanks, you beat me to it. I have some issues with that statement as well.

@munk - whatever you say. honestly, I know nothing about stuff like that. have been shooting both the HK P8 and the G36. P8 was fun, but I could hit better with my slingshot. Maybe it was just me. G36 needed a lot of cleaning. Jamming occasionally. Pretty accurate though. That much I know. I'm not a fan of HK, I like Glocks way better.

anyway, I am sorry that you are completely dismissing Pan Tau's post. Statements like yous do certainly not help easing up tension. It's a sad thing; I love the USA, but sometimes reading on those forums (bladeforums in general) can be a very hard thing.

regards, Keno
 
I too once had a "romantic interest" in HK firearms. My Bando instructor had a P9S. That was too cool back in the days when I knew little of firearms. HK's were always too pricey to me. It seemed you could always get something else as good or better for less money, so I never have had an HK anything. Further, I was always concerned about repair and spare parts availability for HK guns should things ever hit the fan, so to speak. The "gooberment" should not be purchasing any foreign firearm for our troops. JMHO.

Now let's talk Mini-14, or the AR, or 1911, or S&W. Can discuss those all day long. ;)

Jeff
 
Hmmm,funny,not hearing about boycotting CHINA AK'S or Russian Arms,you think THEY love us??I have had to call H&K only one time.I had a ? about shooting Corbons. Person,listened to my ? then said,I'm not sure,just a moment & let me connect you to someone that can. Connection was made &
he answered my ? & took time to explain his answer. Do I like ALL H&K'S??Nope !!Can't stand some of them.
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
Richard Allen:


Germany had large oil contracts with Saddam's regime. They voted against us in the UN Security Counsel. It is not just I that notice Germany's dislike of the US- have you read any well known German politician's statements about the US in the last three years? I have, and my own post is quite mild by comparison. I would remove the phrase 'hates our guts' from my post, (and with your permission will now) but the entire sentence was different and those three words out of context.
..."but profits both from our assertive policing of the world and these fat contracts." Is the rest of the statement.

I actually agree with PanTau about the phrase, 'hates our guts', even though there is a lot of truth in it. Such words, like those of reckless German Politicians, do not help either country.

Richard Allen, if you read all of Pan Tau's post you would see that it is not a devisive one. I feel you have in particular drawn out those features you found most offensive in my writing that he refers to, and have 'run with them'. This does not help either. The gist of my posts were simply it makes no sense for an industrialized nation with it's own weapon's industry to buy HK. By your reaction one would think we had three pages of German Bashing, and such is not the case.

As this thread was about weapons, I apologize to you both I did not pay as much attention to Andreas's post as I would have liked. As always, he raises good points.

Is HK the Mercedes of weapons? I never thought of them as such. They do fullfill an international need for military weapons. Politics is about money and commerce- largely. To say paying HK does not aid Germany, as Satori wanted those two things seperated, is not realistic. Nations compete all the time on behalf of their private industries.

As industry becomes internationalized, it will be interesting to see what comes of soveriegn borders, and old school politics.

One more thing, this thread was prefaced and introduced as an OT 'rant'. Not a treatice on international relations, but a blowing off of steam. We all need a little slack.

munk
 
I see the Cave Dweller has once more hit the nail on the head- the weapon that fits you and you like is the 'best'.

All weapons do have flaws.



munk
 
Thank you Keno and munk -
I think we should not mix up the verbs "to disagree" and "to hate" or the status of not being an ally in one operation or being an enemy. The German army has a lot of men in Afghanistan or former Yugoslavia right now - this makes possible that the US have more troops for Iraq - so Germany is an ally, just one that asks questions before chiming in. I think that´s OK, every nation has this right - and I think we agree that the "frontline" does not divide two democracies (not even France and the US). The game here is about influence, the game "there" (where thre real frontline is) is about religion, hatred and death.
I do not know of "large oil contracts" with Saddam (but would be interested if you have a link as I could not find a listing of the percentages where the oil for Germany is from) - my understanding was this was part of the "food for oil"-program. Germany gets lots of gas and oil from Russia (and did back then), from the Emirates, the Saudis and from the North Sea..
btw. here is a link Condoleeza Rice´s and German chancellor Schroeder´s speeches at a meeting in February (in English) even if you strip down the diplomatic euphemisms you can see that the tensions are on their way down again. I did not find a similar text on Pres. Bush´s visit in February - but the atmosphere was similar.
Rice&Schroeder
Andreas

edit: P.S. sorry for going (or joining) the off-topic here. Let us not forget we are dicussing military arms manufacture and supply - and not international relations...
 
Pan Tau, I read a list once that showed the largest oil contracts with Saddam- Germany was on it. I'm sorry, I don't have a link. It doesn't require oil to show Germany had a vested interest in Saddam's regime.

Tensions are high- but not as great as those between France and the US.

I actually think most Americans still have a favorable view of Germany. I doubt Germany will follow France, but seems to have a direction of its own.

I thought your original post in this thread objected to a phrase of mine without being particularly divisive. I liked that.
>>>>>>>>>>

Most Historians agree Germany had the most advanced weapons of WWll- overall. The metalurgy was historically great in Germany. I don't know that means they have any claim to make the best weapons today. The language of science was once German- any serious student had to be familiar with the language. That is not true today.

Frankly, we get into 'controversial' territory here- that of race, society and culture. Germany never ruled the world, but was always sandwiched between threats. Weapons have a role.

Though many of the Japanese weapons of WWll were terrible, there were some gems and many great ideas. As a 'student of the gun', I am waiting to see what will happen when Japan releases itself from their non offensive philosophy. They made a step recently with Taiwan. I am hoping the Japanese develope a wonderful small arm. They certainly have the culture of refinement to do so.

That Russia makes great small arms has always fascinated me. Never the most refined, until possibly recently, they are none the less adventuresome in idea and robust (usually) in production. I am mildy astounded their new carbine has engineers gushing with praise.

The darn AK systems are arguably the most successful of the last century. I was amused when HK went to stamped recievers in carbines. We all like forged, but beauty is as beauty does.

munk
 
POLITICS!! Crapola! SCREW THAT!! "WE" are discussing FIREARMS here,you don't like it go play somewhere else!! JurassicNARC,YOU are a PRO & can't play(have a friend in your former bus."SouthNarc") ! EVERYONE ELSE,can jump in,OK time to PLAY,Rugs,accuracy SUCKS,also heavy,Stainless is good for boating people,.45's which COLT'S,GET READY TO CHANGE TO Wilson mags. CAUSE THEY ARE GONNA jam,OH,YEAH GET THEM THROATED & POLISHED,GLOCKS,good gun BUT (listen to Tupperware people howl)they are BLOCKY & TRIGGER SUCKS!BHP'S good to go BUT SIGHT sucks!H&K'S p7's "only"perfect" EXCEPT FOR,"GETTING HOT & $$$ BUT you get what you PAY FOR! Barretts,JUST plain ugly,& BIG & CLUNKY.FHP HATES THEM!!
Well,this aught to get you GUYS STARTED!! Sooooo??Ahhh,one little ? all badmouthing H&K ever short a P7??BET NOT MANY or you would......
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
I'm not 'badmouthing' HK, Cavedweller, just don't agree with spending my tax monies on them when homegrown is great. It'd be like trying to get the French Government to buy California wine!!!!


As for the 1911; I bought a Springfield many years ago for 335 bucks. I had it ramped and ported for about 35 bucks. It shoots great and is reliable. That is hardly the 2000 neccesary for a Wilson.

To tell you the truth, if I were buying foreign I'd get a Sig 220
For robust and cheap, I still like the CZ 75 take off- the Witness. Those Jerichos were tank tough too. They were marketed here under the Baby Eagle designation, though there may have been some slight changes from the Israli military version.

The Galil always had a cult following just like the HK 91. You can't convince a Galil owner he doesn't own the greatest carbine since barrels were rifled.

I'm fond of them all. I like my M1A just fine, though. It is an early one and may even be a military reciever- don't know. It has the select fire cut out on the stock.

Always wondered why the cult boys never discovered the Daewoo . That was a fine weapon.

I own a couple AK actions and like them.


munk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top