OT: Wheelguns disappearing....

munk said:
Satori, I think it's a little arrogant of you to speak of revolvers in the way you have. (and that's OK- Friends are allowed a little chuzpah, right?) But you picked the number one issue between the revolver vs semiauto as reliability. You're right- a modern, well kept auto is reliable. But that's not the number one issue, and does not answer the question. You've dismissed the revolver without a complete examination.
munk
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I don't think that it's arrogant at all. If we're talking power, we're talking caliber. The weapon can be built around the caliber.

I know that you're a fan of the .41, and with good reason. It's one of those calibers that's skirting the area where small compromises make for large improvements. The only reason that I don't own one myself is that I already have a .44, already have the dies and brass for .44, and am well accustomed to .44. Otherwise, it would be .41.

But...if there was a commonly available rimless version of .44 - or .41 - with weapons available to chamber it, would I stick with that revolver? No. I would not. I rarely use it now, preferring a 10mm auto. Please, do not judge the platform by what's available for it because that can (and has done so in the past) change at a moment's notice.

The car door is a bad example. A .22 LR will do it, sometimes. (I've tried it. Luck is a factor.) Any commonly issued centerfire ought to do it more often than not.

Stopping an engine with pistol fire is an exceedingly poor example for a variety of reasons. There is not a pistol made today, that I can comfortably shoot, that I would trust to stop a vehicle. (Driver, yes. Engine, no.) There are many long guns I wouldn't trust for it, either. Our gate guards carry an M14 for the purpose; I consider this marginal, but appropriate under the circumstances. This is just my experience.

It's not about "us civilians." "Us civilians" can carry whatever we like (within the limits of the law) which simplifies or complicates the issue as we prefer.
 
1. I said today's car doors were easily penetrated- I said try a one ton truck. Or better, just try a back seat, through some metal, maybe around a beam and then a suspects coat. Your semi autos are not near the equal of a revolver.
2. I own a 10mm. It is not a 41 or 44 or 45 Colt. It is not the equal. There is no easily carried semi auto that is the equal of a N frame wheel gun.
3. A large bore can crack an engine block, blow up a radiator or Power steering pump after skirting incidental metal and whatnot. Your common 40 and 9 cannot. Most departments aren't allowed to use the 10, and even if they were, it would not be the hot loads, and even if they were hot, like the Old Norma, it would still not be a 41 44 or 45 Colt. We are talking about causing enough damage to halt vehicle relatively soon. I don't have to 'trust' that it will stop a vehicle- just that it does significantly enough better job of it than a weak semi auto. It is simply one more factor, another quality the revolver possesses the semis do not.

There was an excellent gun digest article several years ago about bringing officers back to the revolver. Hit to miss ratio was one factor. Spray and pray is a phrase widely quoted for good reason. The revolver hit to miss ratio is much much better than the semi auto- even in 'professional' police hands.

You've left out also that most wheel guns are more accurate than most semi autos. Look at the NRA Dope bag performance reviews for the last 20 years regarding both. A good out of box semi auto is good to get 3" at 25 yards, and I'm being generous. A good revolver easily hits 2" You want to make a claim your professional one is more accurate than that? Fine. With any of my large bore Ruger and SW revolvers, I've never failed to get under an inch at 25 yards, and they are out of box.

The revolver is a better weapon for the outdoor officer. In the outdoors you are less concerned with 'collateral' damage or over-penetration. You have need of a reliable accurate weapon that can go farther distances than typical semi autos and through tougher barriors.

I don't care what you like best. And what I mean by that, is simply if you prefer a semi auto by God should have one!!! I don't think it right your opinon would extend to any officers under your command, especially if some of them were rural with real time spent in the boonies.

take care,

munk
 
I am curious about the "reliability" of a semi vs a revolver? I have fired a lot of rounds through Glocks with never a jam or misfire. Used some pretty crappy ammo also.
 
Satori said:
I will stick with this: all things being equal on the shooter's end, the auto is the better choice for law enforcement. Standardization in equipment brings its own rewards. Not everyone will have what they want, but most people will have what they need - a worthwhile goal for those in public service.
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I agree with Satori on this point. Not everyone that qualifies is proficient, and a hi-cap auto with three or four mags available is probably best at "all things to everybody."

I say that from a position of almost 45 years of shooting experience, and a decided preference for S&W revolvers, with a secondary interest in SA autos like the 1911 and the BHP. If I have a handgun in my hand, it WILL likely be a S&W, and and N-Frame, and either an M25-2, M1917, or M28. Because of many thousands of rounds fired, reloaded, and fired again (lather, rinse, repeat), I got so that pop cans were once not safe from my M25-2s at 100 yards, using deliberate fire. My eyes aren't what they once were, but those same pop cans go flying anywhere between 50 and 75 yards with 52-year-old eyes.

While in the Marines in the early 70s, I saw dozens of recruits and Marines that barely qualified with the M1911A1, and many more that could not. Invariably, those that did qualify (myself included) were already familiar with the 1911-style pistol, and this experience served them well.

Most every serious handgunner knows that Ed McGivern did wonders with his custom-tuned S&W revolvers. What is little known is that he wasn't anywhere near his form when shooting a 1911.

Point is, it is ALL about the experience and familiarity that breeds proficiency. And proficiency is what makes an experienced hand with a 6-shot S&W M57 the equivalent of an inexperienced (but qualified!) rookie with a hi-cap Glock. On this point, count me in with Munk and Jurrassic.

PS: FWIW, I did some penetration tests with my 6" M28 on a junked early 60s Chevy truck with a 250 cu in 6 cyl engine. From 20-25 yards, a warm-loaded cast 168 gr bullet punched through fender, inner fender, and repeatedly fractured the engine block, most often in the water jacket between cylinders. All that proves is that 45 year old Chevys aren't safe from my .357. ;)

Noah
 
Twenty years ago it was more of a talking point. Satori is right that a modern auto is a pretty reliable thing. I'm not sure if it is still quite as reliable as a wheelgun. I don't think it is, but it's gotten close enough to wonder if it's still an issue.

The semi is usually pretty easy to clear. Course, while one is doing that bad things might happen.

The other side is that when a wheelgun doesn't go bang, it's either a bad shell, (not a problem, because it doesn't need the energy of the ignition event to cycle the way a semi does) or a major problem. I don't know that to be true, but that is the other side. In my experience the most common problem is a locked cylinder, and that's caused by too tight a BC gap accumulating with spent powder, a foreign object jamming in there or between the cylinder and the top strap, or the extractor rod unscrewing outwards and locking it.

I think a primer seated too far out from the case can lock a cylinder too. I've had all those things happen, though the primers were my own fault, the narrow BC gap was intentional and not on a weapon I'd normally carry for defense, the foreign object so rare Haleys Comet will return before that happens again, and the unscrewed extractor fixable.

If a spring broke you'd be in trouble, but most of that criticism should be at Colt's door for their older model, wonderful triggered but relatively sensitive operation with all the small springs. Smith, Ruger, Wesson, Taurus don't have springs breaking.

If a gun were left in a drawer for 20 years and then fired, I'd trust the wheelgun over the semi auto to go bang. I think the semis have to be kept cleaner. I had a five shot snubbie on the floor of my truck, in a sock, in a Tennis shoe. It rumbled around down there with wrappers, boxes, tapes, debris etc etc. It was reliable.

The AR is not a handgun but it is a semi and full auto and it does jam in sandy conditions. (according to what I've read) I don't know how much sand that is. I'd like to see a semi auto handgun compete with a revolver in filthy conditions. I think the revolver would win. There are some great semis with largely protected rails.

I hope I didn't dampen this thread. I know gun people have strong opinions. I like both revolvers and semi autos. It's hard to understand why the revolver would be dismissed by a semi auto fan. I certainly don't dismiss semis.

My late great gunsmith, engineer, outfitter, teacher and friend carried a semi auto- the shortened 45 Smith, the Smith 10mm, and even the 40 for a little bit once. I asked him why he didn't carry a revolver.

"Because the semis are easier to conceal. Otherwise, I'd carry a revolver in a heart beat."

munk
 
Originally Posted by Satori
I will stick with this: all things being equal on the shooter's end, the auto is the better choice for law enforcement. Standardization in equipment brings its own rewards. Not everyone will have what they want, but most people will have what they need - a worthwhile goal for those in public service.



I agree with Satori on this point. Not everyone that qualifies is proficient, and a hi-cap auto with three or four mags available is probably best at "all things to everybody." Noahzark

I rather agree with both of you too, with this caveat- the outdoor officer, in desert, ranch, and woodland, be he Borderpatrol or Forest Ranger or Sherrif, in many cases is better suited for his line of work with a revolver than a semi, and I would not handicap him to the same equipment given to the city police.

munk
 
Great thread and great points from all sides. I agree with Munk that different conditions will decide in favor of one over the other.
 
I try to stay away from gun threads, but...

The revolver's day is not done. For hunting, plinking and many other purposes. It may no longer be first-line choice for military and police, but the design(s) will still be around in our children's children's day. We still buy & shoot SA revolvers. The single shot TC is alive and well. Revolvers are a simple, reliable mechanical device.

Blackpowder flintlocks are still around too, something an 1850's cap-n-ball shooter would never believe.


Ad Astra :footinmou
 
I just reread the premise for the thread. We've wandered off here and there, and our context has changed.

I'd rather have a hi cap semi than the 6 shot 38 special if I were a City Cop.

I like khuks because they are the most useful blade I've found, are simple, reliable, and despite modern steels and renditions, still the best for what they do. Out of doors, that description still fits the revolver better than the semi auto. Is the Khukuri obsolete?

Maybe it's a West Thing. I've spent so much time wandering the Mojave I can't count it reliably. I had 20,000 miles on a new truck- all going to the desert, not work, in a single year. Then we moved to Idaho, and after that, Wyoming, and then Montana. Help is a long ways off. And back up for a policemen is a long ways off if his area is also where I'm wandering. Maybe that's another reason; when you're as far out in the country as I am, help is not on the way, and it's not on the way for a cop out here either. You have to end the argument yourself.

If something truly is about to take my life, I want to hit it with as hard a force as i can. I want to be able to shoot as far as I need to within the limits of offhand open sights. I want barriors reduced and penetrated. Bushes, trees, rocks, fences, walls and vehicles. I want a revolver. I want something I can absolutely count on. Your semi's hold up real good at 20 below in the snow or at 113 in the dust, do they? It is also very useful to be able to use the same gun for hunting that you do for self defense. How much more competent with the arm are you then?

There was a time the Eastern woods were pretty safe. You had snakes, bad guys, and more bad guys. You have black bear in the Eastern woods today I would not want to face with a Nine mill. But you do have help close by.

So I don't get it. Once you bring this discussion out of the realm of inner city law enforcement, or military, a revolver is often not only a valid choice, it is a far better choice. And to have people say things like 'what conditions?" or 'who makes that decision?" When I see this marvelous tool compared indirectly to a flintlock, I can hardly believe I'm reading these things in the same forum where Khukuris are understood and loved.

You know, I wouldn't carry a khukuri to the drugstore. But once you're away from roads, it's the best choice.

take care

Mr Revolver
 
munk said:
When I see this marvelous tool compared indirectly to a flintlock, I can hardly believe I'm reading these things in the same forum where Khukuris are understood and loved.
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Arrgh. I am misread once again. I meant that time-proven firearm forms will be with us a long time- maybe forever. Especially revolvers.

I'll try again. We still have sailboats, even though motorboats have been invented. Some people prefer to sail... some prefer revolvers. All are good- it's just a matter of what you prefer.

It's a valid analogy.

Ad Astra
 
I know you respect revolvers, Ad. But a Flintlock is unwieldy, usually heavy, with a long time between initial spark and ignition. It is not efficient, and does not compare to the job being done by modern firearms. A Sailboat isn't much better. Modern Motor boats are faster, carry more, and are safer in storms.

I don't use revolvers because they are nostalgic. It's wonderful they are, and elegant too. I use them because they compete favorably and win over semi autos in Power, Accuracy, Distance, and mechanical reliability.

munk
 
Bill Marsh said:
I am curious about the "reliability" of a semi vs a revolver? I have fired a lot of rounds through Glocks with never a jam or misfire. Used some pretty crappy ammo also.
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In some gunfights pieces of meat and coagulated blood can hang up the action, more commonly with semi-autos than with revolvers, but it can happen with a wheel gun as well (the notorious shootout between two bank robbers and the FBI in Miami a few years back is an example). On the practice range, one rarely has gooey stuff to deal with, so these days both revolvers and semi-autos function evenly well. Some open top slide autos like the Beretta are more susceptable to debris, as are anything with a compensator or flange in front of the slide mounted on the barrel. This is because they can't return to battery, and the disconnector will hang them up. Nothing like this problem exists for revolvers. Some of the most expensive race guns in the world would be poor choices to take into a dopehouse in Detroit.

Again, I own and shoot both regularly, so I have no axe to grind. But as friend Munk says, it's a matter of picking a tool for the job at hand; one does not use scissors to cut the grass.....
 
High capacity magazines shouldn't be, but often are, an invitation to spray and pray mentality. One aimed shot from either revolver or semi-auto usually is worth 4 or 5 lobbed in the general direction of your adversary. I may carry a 1911 variant these days, but I'm still responsible for where every round goes.
 
Gun threads always make me miss Rusty. :(

In a sense Rusty has posted to this thread as well, back when this article was posted on THR.
 
Yeah. Hi, Rusty! :D :(

I like revolvers more and more. Then again, I'm liking bolt-action wood-stocked rifles more & more, too.

Autopistols are (usually) easier to conceal, carry more rounds, and have a more robust design. Even the strongest revolver, slammed against a wall or dropped on concrete, can go out of time (though less likely on full-size Casulls, for instance). That same slamming will probably cock up the sights on a Glock or a 1911, but they'll still go bang unless you've bent the metal.

I actually have had the Ultimate Fighting Pistol (how's that for an oxymoron?). It was a Glock 24. Couldn't conceal it, and if I was someplace where it was legal to have openly, I could just carry a rifle. It was accurate as hell, though. I've made some decent shots with my autos...popped a 20oz bottle with one shot at 30 yards from a Glock 23, for instance...I just wish I could shoot that well with a wheelgun. ;)

Yup, I love the feel of a 4" N-frame. Wonderfully balanced, and sweet shooting in .45 Colt or .41. I just know they're obsolescent...but it's nearly always the man, not the tool, right?

But what if you were facing a man of equal ability? 'N, truth be told, it really ain't the first threat that bothers me, or the second. It'd be nice to be ready for the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, and even with our super-wonder-magic loudenthumper .498 Magnum, it's still an underpowered handgun round, right? And having been well-trained, or having some grasp of the nature of dying violently, we're going to shoot any threat at least twice, right?

Maybe others can use hunting revolvers for concealed/duty carry. I know, much as I like S&W, that I'm a heck of a lot better right now with a 1911, Glock, or Beretta.

Hey, different flavors of ice cream, but sometimes there really is a "better" of a thing.

John
 
Yup, I love the feel of a 4" N-frame. Wonderfully balanced, and sweet shooting in .45 Colt or .41. I just know they're obsolescent...but it's nearly always the man, not the tool, right?>>>>>>> Spectre

Obsolescent for what? Most police and military, yes.
For everyone else- no. Police and military use are of less interest to the other 260 million residents of the US. For the vast majority of us, the Revolver is not obsolete but has reached a pinnacle the semi auto cannot obtain in the foreseeable future. Show me your 1000 footpounds of energy in a carryable package for bear, with a heavy 250 or 300 gr bullet, and in the same gun without changing springs or having to add buffers a rabbit load, self defense load, target or practise load? They shoot silohette to what? 250 meters or more with open sights and knock the ram down? And today's revolver will take this pounding of heavy loads and last the average man's lifetime.

Autopistols are (usually) easier to conceal, carry more rounds, and have a more robust design. Even the strongest revolver, slammed against a wall or dropped on concrete, can go out of time>>>>>> Spectre

This issue is brought up many times in the revolver forum in the High Road. A cylinder out of time from a gun being dropped is very very rare, and when it happens, it is usually when the cylinder is open. How many reports of slides cracking, springs breaking, and semis jamming with use or dirt do we need in this thread before we can dispell the notion of the poor delicate revolver?



You want a broad band weapon that can kill a bear or a rabbit, protect your home and gather meat in the fall, get a revolver. If you like hitting accurately from 1 to 150 yards get a revolver. If you like accuracy period get a revolver- or plan on spending a lot of money on a semi to make it as good as most off the shelf revolvers are already. If you're a cop and think like a cop, if you work security, are in the military and think of military goals, are focused on very specific and narrow uses for the sidearm, get a semi auto. You get to tell everyone it's the most advanced.


munk
 
What? 36 replies and no pics...untillll now :D

16833757_d610c9fb03_o.jpg
 
Guys,
Carry gun is usually an H&K P7,or(& a S&W Airweight"I live in Miami,so I need two")!!
However If I could,I would carry my 4"357 mag.Dan Wesson.Just something about a blued gun that hits dead center,AHHHHH,sort of like holding a Durba!!!
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
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