Out cutting

David Martin said:
Jake, I have kinfolks in Fairbanks and their mercury isn't as low as yours.?
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Oh yes,David,that's typical for Fairbanks,as much as 20 deg. difference around "town"(i'm actually about 45 min. drive from town proper,low down in the Standard Creek valley,off of Old Ridge trail...
Up the few hills in Fbks there're some neighborhoods where the property values are higher because of that :)
It's the Inversion,where the very cold air comes pouring down the hills and pooling up in low spots like the creek valleys,acting very much like water.I guess it displaces warmer air as it does so,and creates this radical disbalance in temps.
In the past when i lived in camp above Yukon river,50'+ up the bank,on very cold days the temperature was often 15 degrees colder down on the river ice.You actually feel the change as you walk down...
In this country,if in peril,you head up the hill as far up as you can to bed down for the night,can make a big difference...
 
It's 28*, here and still snowing today. Low clouds with 15 mph West winds. We fed our livestock and walked the dogs, then put them in.
My pattern feeding our stove on days like this is, 2 big oak logs every 3 hours. This amount will not let the house start cooling down. The thermometer on the stove reads mostly at 300*. Around half of what Jake is feeding. But our mercury is not as low. DM
 
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jake pogg said:
Oh yes,David,that's typical for Fairbanks,as much as 20 deg. difference around "town"(i'm actually about 45 min. drive from town proper,low down in the Standard Creek valley,off of Old Ridge trail...
Up the few hills in Fbks there're some neighborhoods where the property values are higher because of that :)
It's the Inversion,where the very cold air comes pouring down the hills and pooling up in low spots like the creek valleys,acting very much like water.I guess it displaces warmer air as it does so,and creates this radical disbalance in temps.
In the past when i lived in camp above Yukon river,50'+ up the bank,on very cold days the temperature was often 15 degrees colder down on the river ice.You actually feel the change as you walk down...
In this country,if in peril,you head up the hill as far up as you can to bed down for the night,can make a big difference...
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Jake-This reminds me of my now deceased brother. He was notorious for winter camping with his tepee or just heading out and digging into a snowbank. I asked him what I should remember if I am ever in a winter situation and needed a snowbank for shelter? His answer relates to this: When digging into the snow make sure the opening on the outside is lower than the inside of your cave. The tunnel going inside should be up hill as far as possible so the colder air follows gravity and out of the cave itself. If you cannot dig uphill, dig a trench across the opening just inside the tunnel going in. The colder air will setting there and not in your cave.

He told me there could be a 10° to 15° temperature difference inside the cave if you do this. He would teach kids how to shoot black powder flintlock guns and dig snow cave shelters at an area winter scout encampment while dressed and outfitted in 1840s period rendezvous clothing ... no modern shoes or boots ... no matches to start fires with, only flint, steel and char cloth as fire starting was part of the demonstration, too. Bob often said he was born in the wrong century.
 
Hairy Clipper said:
He told me there could be a 10° to 15° temperature difference inside the cave if you do this. He would teach kids how to shoot black powder flintlock guns and dig snow cave shelters at an area winter scout encampment while dressed and outfitted in 1840s period rendezvous clothing ... no modern shoes or boots ... no matches to start fires with, only flint, steel and char cloth as fire starting was part of the demonstration, too. Bob often said he was born in the wrong century.
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He sounds like a great guy,i'm sorry for his passing...:(

In "Chinook",the lingua franca of Alaska and Canada,the term was "to siwash",to spend the night outside with no structure for shelter,with only what you have(or more often don't have:).
Without shelter what Will get you is Hypothermia(don't know Chinook for that).
Which simply is loosing more energy than you can replace.
The trouble is our skin,which we use for cooling,and through which we loose all kinds of energy(not evenly all over but i'm being Very general).
So the Cold,per se,is only secondary trouble,the main enemy is moisture,ambient humidity(which is simply droplets of water dispersed throughout air,and water being great conductor sucks the energy out of our skin...At a rate of,for solid water, 25(!)times faster than dry air.
So the temperature matters also because the warmer it is the More moisture it contains.Most people who die of hypothermia do so in the plus numbers on the thermometer...The most dangerous time in the woods here is above 0F,especially above 20F,very moist air,lots of water in the snow itself;your gear is getting wet from only just the contact with it...

So,if caught out,and need to dig in,definitely make sure you dig away All the snow,and then still you'd need to cut some boughs or brush to keep yourself from contacting wet snow,or wet ground...We actually don't get that much snow here....i never thought in terms of a complete snowcave,you'd have to build it up which again will probably mean sticks and brush which in turn means AXE.(you definitely better not leave home without one).
But it'd probably be a cozy improvement,if you had the energy and the conditions/materials to build one.

But yes,keep yourself dry,and out of contact with anything that'll soak your gear,and hopefully you'll stay warm...
 
The game changer nowadays is synthetic gear,for all the above reasons.
Moisture beads up on plastic fibers,and those beads/droplets of water are all separate,i.e. don't contact,they break the energy transfer(vs cotton fiber).
Unless you Compress the buggers,then your battery has a constant drain that the body just won't be able to keep up with.
Wool,in the past,was actually somewhat better for all that.But still,shelter or not,it's crucial to avoid that electric,practically,contact,to not be dumping your precious energy at these accelerated rates...
 
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jake pogg said:
In "Chinook",the lingua franca of Alaska and Canada,the term was "to siwash",to spend the night outside with no structure for shelter,with only what you have(or more often don't have:).
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It's actually a language originating from the Columbia River (Nch'i-Wána) valley on the present Oregon/Washington border. The massive chinook salmon fishery at Celilo Falls made this the trade center for the Pacific Northwest. The language became the trade language of the entire region.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinook_Jargon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinookan_languages

jake pogg said:
The game changer nowadays is synthetic gear,for all the above reasons.
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And those above reasons are why those in the mountain rescue business call cotton "death cloth". It holds moisture and causes death by exposure.
 
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I'll add if you ever make a snow cave in a bank you want to shovel or otherwise disturb the snow thoroughly before digging in, no matter how tempting it is to just start excavating. If the snow is powdery and not immediately given to working with you can pile it for the same effect. Which is, essentially, setting the snow. When you move the snow it breaks the crystals condensing them, there's just a tiny bit of heat created in the process, and it re freezes in about half an hour. You wind up with a homogenous, much more stable snow that's suitable for working with. Many a night spent in snow caves, there's a really special ambience and they do sleep much warmer than a tent. Lots of tricks to make them work to their full potential.
 
jake pogg said:
The game changer nowadays is synthetic gear,for all the above reasons.
Moisture beads up on plastic fibers,and those beads/droplets of water are all separate,i.e. don't contact,they break the energy transfer(vs cotton fiber).
Unless you Compress the buggers,then your battery has a constant drain that the body just won't be able to keep up with.
Wool,in the past,was actually somewhat better for all that.But still,shelter or not,it's crucial to avoid that electric,practically,contact,to not be dumping your precious energy at these accelerated rates...
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I don't have anything to add to the snow hut discussion... But I was just picturing where you live Jake and wondering what the heck you use for internet? Satellite? Cell signal? I highly doubt you have cable!! Haha.
 
Fmont said:
I'll add if you ever make a snow cave in a bank you want to shovel or otherwise disturb the snow thoroughly before digging in, no matter how tempting it is to just start excavating. If the snow is powdery and not immediately given to working with you can pile it for the same effect. Which is, essentially, setting the snow. When you move the snow it breaks the crystals condensing them, there's just a tiny bit of heat created in the process, and it re freezes in about half an hour. You wind up with a homogenous, much more stable snow that's suitable for working with. Many a night spent in snow caves, there's a really special ambience and they do sleep much warmer than a tent. Lots of tricks to make them work to their full potential.
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That is a great tip! If Bob knew that he did not pass it along to me. He used to have his tepee set up most of the winter about 25 feet from his house and when we were successful hunting squirrel or rabbit it was customary to go out in the tepee, start a fire in the middle and roast the game on a stick and chat the night away. I have only slept in a snow cave once ... Bob had to show me his creation ... it was warmer than I had expected and with a little insulation under the sleeping bag along with a stocking cap it was very comfortable.
 
Josh I have been following the Iditarod since 1973. Back then it took a month to get to Nome ... now about eight days and that has been shrinking steadily In 1973 I would get the Minneapolis Sunday newspaper because the sports page had a short article on the race and who was leading. Fast forward to now a days ... I can see the ceremonial start, the restart. and most of the checkpoints. the finish line and the awards banquet live as it happens! All of this thanks to the Internet, WiFi and satellite telephones. Of course you must be subscribed to the Iditarod Insider Internet coverage. Additionally, thanks to mapping software and GPS I can watch the mushers advance over the trail and can tell which end of the team parking lot they are on. The last two years one of the mushers has had a problem while out on Norton Sound, a place notorious for white out conditions in gale force winds, the first year it happened watchers could tell he was off course ... the second time we could see he was in one place a long time. The dogs did not want go and it was at the place they got lost the year before. Sadly, these events happened to the fellow that was positioned to win the Iditarod.

https://iditarod.com/insider/
 
jake pogg said:
:)
Satellite only at home,Josh.Right now in Fairbanks though-not sure(it's 300 miles East of where i live).There May be a cable coming in from somewhere,and the cell tower that connects me may communicate with...
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It's pretty incredible.. I'm guilty of somewhat resenting the internet age like a lot of people I think. But boy we'd be a lot worse off without you Jake! And many other forum members too. You guys are always adding valuable info and experience.
It's funny to think of you way out there down in a valley in Alaska writing away on the internet!
I've always been fascinated with the Iditarod. And Susan was a pretty incredible woman. I've seen several documentaries on her.
No doubt the internet has added so very many good things to our lives and society.
But it's had many social and cultural costs too. It's inevitable I suppose. And once the newness of it wears off the costs come in to focus. Frankly we don't even know what the long term effects will be!
But overall I'm very grateful for it. For you all and the forum too. I've learned invaluable things here and had lots of fun in the meantime.
 
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Were are taking a hit of winter today, with 2" on the ground, 28* and it's coming down. I'm shoving oak logs to the stove and keeping the house warm.
J jake pogg , I've been meaning to follow up on weather with you. Here in the Rockies, the opposite is true with what your saying. My kinfolks
tell my they don't have wind at Fairbanks thus, the cold settles in like your saying. But in the Rockies we have wind with our winter storms.
So, if one goes on top of the mountain it's a colder temperature than down in the bottom of a canyon out of the wind. Thus, you would build your overnight shelter down low, away from the top, to stay warmer. I've checked the temperature many times and it can matter 5-10*.
Plus, my kinfolks tell me it's a different type snow up there. Our snow here is a wet snow. More moisture laden and packs different. DM
Cuttingoak5.jpg
 
David Martin said:
Plus, my kinfolks tell me it's a different type snow up there. Our snow here is a wet snow. More moisture laden and packs different.
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Oh yes,David,absolutely so.Most times,but of deep cold especially the air here holds very little moisture,and it has a Huge bearing on practically everything.
Snow of course first and foremost.
It falls and compacts and sets and in Every way behaves differently because of that.
Some ways are helpful-when snow is all loose and dry like sugar fresh out of the bag it's easy to just shake out of your gear,or off your tools,et c.It doesn't stick.So as you're splitting wood,say,you don't have to worry about rolling fresh wood around in it,it won't stick all over it or your tools.
On the other hand it'll do you dirt too,like if your chainsaw is warm,snow can get in through cooling fins on recoil,and melt and in effect weld your pawls shut(Stihls are Real bad about that,tiny plastic pawls...and then you're screwed,and taking the recoil off et c.).
A big problem is that this dry cold snow doesn't pack.It makes any trail difficult to maintain,takes a lot of time and work to build any "base" to it.And then the loose snow flying about in the wind can just bury,fill in a trail in hours,trail that may've taken days of really hard work to break...Loose sand-like it just robs energy from you or machinery that you try to use in it...
But overall the dry air makes things much easier,it's easier to move,and to breathe,and to stay warm.
This is a wonderful country(well,they all are,you just get to know and love one more for being more proficient in it for your knowledge:)...
 
Eskimos have 50 words for snow, so there must be many tricks to dealing correctly with the different types.
 
tiguy7 said:
Eskimos have 50 words for snow
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Well,yes and no...It's more of a myth,actually...Here's a bit about that:https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/inuktitut-words-for-snow-and-ice

But it's true in a way too,just like anywhere people live they learn to use the ins and outs of what surrounds them.
"Eskimos",Yupik and Inuit people live around the Arctic coastal plain.Much of their snow is pretty funky in texture-because of all the open,treeless landscape and constant wind the snow gets packed into this hard layer...As in hard to stomp your boot into.I worked up at Deadhorse one winter,and never could get over this wonderful effect,you can walk anywhere right on the surface of the snow.It's also constantly being carved by the wind into all sorts of waves and cornices and patterns...Way cool:).

Alaska is huge,much of it extends almost a 1000 miles south so far it becomes practically PNW,with it's warm/wet winter storms coming off the Japan current.
But the center of the state,so-called Interior Alaska,is yet different from the Panhandle(that southerly extension)and the Arctic and other coasts.

Interior Alaska is pretty much this one giant valley of the Yukon and Tanana rivers.It's heavily treed,and dry,and cold.Edged by two great mountain ranges,Brooks to the north(Rockies North),and Alaska range,it traps it's own weather systems.The mountains deflect much of the warmer cyclonic low-pressure centers,trapping the cold arctic air masses for weeks or months at a time.
So very dry,and often cold,and lots of trees to break the wind,make for our snow conditions.
Everything here is based on those snow particulars.The way people get around,everything you do in the winter.Animals,too of course are all totally dependent on the qualities of snow.
Many small critters run around underneath,some bigger ones fluff out in winter to have "snowshoes"-seriously furred pads to run around by staying on top of fairly loose/soft snow.
Yet bigger animals plow through with their lower legs(the hair there is very special,short and stiff).
Any changes are super critical,lets say for example if snow got any heavier,moose would starve as the amount of energy needed to get around would exceed what they can browse in a day....

And on and on,yes,the texture,depth,all that is very critical,and for someone being outdoors a lot,very important.You do catch yourself sometimes discussing the snow conditions with other people in embarrassing detail...:)
 
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