Para-Military in CTS-204P

Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
16,379
I am done with Spyderco and the monster they have created.
Like I said, I am done with Spyderco. In fact, maybe it's time to re-think knife collecting altogether?

Spyderco has done nothing wrong, and we are lucky we have a company that gives us special runs with many types of steels. No other company does that for us.

Its just a knife, and you have several other PM 2's that should suit you well. If you're going to let something like this get to you maybe it is time to re-think knife collecting.

Hopefully you'll feel better soon and not give up on Spyderco. Have a good day.
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
5,921
I had the same experience as I said in the other thread. I dont blame Spydie, I think KW screwed the pooch on this one. The extra knives should have gone to the people on the back-up list, IN THE ORDER that they were placed on the list, until the knives were done. Simple as that... too easy for this other stupid method to go pear-shaped, which it did.

I had asked to be notified if there were any cancellations shortly after the pre-order sold out and I got an email from Ashley on Tuesday. I stayed up all night just to be one of the first in line. The very instant they became available I placed my order. As I'm checking out, paying for my knife, I get a "Server Error." I go back and start over. Pages are not loading. I keep clicking the button to place my order and end up with 8 in my cart. I ATTEMPT to update my cart to only one (1) and again the page is loading very slowly.

Finally, I get just one in my cart and all of my information is being processed in the final stage of checking out when suddenly the page changes and says I have no items in my cart. Huh? That all happened before 6:10 PDT -- 8:10 CDT (CST).

I immediately ATTEMPT to call them--KnifeWorks. Busy Busy Busy! Finally, many calls later, I get through to a very sympathetic lady who listens to me describing what just happened. All she could say is "I'm sorry" -- "I'm sorry" -- "They're all gone."

I call bull pucky! What happened on their website this morning was just wrong! It's over an hour later and I am still livid!

Thanks for letting me blow off steam. I am done with Spyderco and the monster they have created. I own 3 Para 2's -- Digicam, Brown and Orange. I also own 2 Military's -- Digicam & Titanium. I USE all of them. I also own over 200 other knives. I am a collector. So this ain't my first rodeo. I have never bought a knife just to make a profit. In fact, I have never sold a knife -- Period! I have given many away and traded several. It sickens me to see what has become of a once enjoyable hobby and pastime. Like I said, I am done with Spyderco. In fact, maybe it's time to re-think knife collecting altogether?
 

russde

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,047
Buffalo,
I agree with you that it didn't work well...but, think about the silliness that could have ensued in the other scenario:
KW has 'x' knives that pre-orderers flaked on...they send e-mails to the first 'x' people on the list...how long should they wait for responses? What about the poor guy who is on vacation? He'd pitch a fit too. There isn't a 'good', 'fair' AND business friendly way to do it.
I know for a fact I was first or second on the back-up list because when I asked Ashley (?) to be put on it after missing the pre-order she told me I was the first one (unless she lied to give me hope?). I was ROYALLY po'd when I found out they weren't going to offer the leftovers in order...but...I don't think there is a good way to do it. KW is a business. If a sprint run takes too many man-hours they end up losing money on it and then they won't do any more; and at $140 they can't have been making a giant profit on this knife to begin with.
I feel bad that you missed out, if I could have ordered more than one, I would have, so that I could contact other 'users' to sell to them at cost. Seriously. Think about it. The flippers are making what? $150-160 right? On ONE sale...if they're so hard up for cash that $150 is enough to screw over a fellow knife-nut...well, so be it.
I would like to see something constructive come out of all the drama generated by this knife...maybe a creative person could think of a business friendly way for KW and other companies to handle sprint runs. Otherwise they will end up doing it like Bento...just charging enough on the front end that flippers can't make enough to justify the time.
 
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
1,751
Now I have to wonder, between the extreme demand, 1.5 year wait, rampant flipping, and now this tiny bump with the backorders —*is this the limited edition Spyderco with the most drama attached to it?

Why yes... yes it is.

I guess I don't understand being angry with a manufacturer instead of the seller (or the knife-community) for the way things went on this one. If it was a big enough deal that you are willing to walk away from a knife company for good, then isn't it worth paying $60-$80 more on the secondary market (and yes - a lot of folks asking higher prices are coming down for offers since too many people jumped the flip-that-knife "gun" on this one).
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
7,424
I know I got mine. I was surprised when the actual price showed up in the checkout screen. Man people have been price-hiking 'em as high as they can around here (and more than a few aren't selling).

To be honest, I'm not super excited about the color, so a set of custom scales might be in the works for this guy and my Grey one (might have to pick up an Earth brown one and do a scale-swap on this Green one).

Color - that's what I thought at first, but it has really grown on me - see how you feel after a week or two. :thumbup:
 
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
7,424
I am guessing that the issue with serial waiting periods to try to work through the list is why the did it this way - even if they only gave people three or four days to reconnect and pay, it would reallly have dragged out for weeks, maybe months. No good or happy answers here probably. :(

Buffalo,
I agree with you that it didn't work well...but, think about the silliness that could have ensued in the other scenario:
KW has 'x' knives that pre-orderers flaked on...they send e-mails to the first 'x' people on the list...how long should they wait for responses? What about the poor guy who is on vacation? He'd pitch a fit too. There isn't a 'good', 'fair' AND business friendly way to do it.
I know for a fact I was first or second on the back-up list because when I asked Ashley (?) to be put on it after missing the pre-order she told me I was the first one (unless she lied to give me hope?). I was ROYALLY po'd when I found out they weren't going to offer the leftovers in order...but...I don't think there is a good way to do it. KW is a business. If a sprint run takes too many man-hours they end up losing money on it and then they won't do any more; and at $140 they can't have been making a giant profit on this knife to begin with.
I feel bad that you missed out, if I could have ordered more than one, I would have, so that I could contact other 'users' to sell to them at cost. Seriously. Think about it. The flippers are making what? $150-160 right? On ONE sale...if they're so hard up for cash that $150 is enough to screw over a fellow knife-nut...well, so be it.
I would like to see something constructive come out of all the drama generated by this knife...maybe a creative person could think of a business friendly way for KW and other companies to handle sprint runs. Otherwise they will end up doing it like Bento...just charging enough on the front end that flippers can't make enough to justify the time.
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
5,921
Dude, in this day and age of mobile comms I cannot see how it would have been a problem to get in touch with people - at home, on vacation, or on the freaking moon. And then to simply go down the list. The guys who respond to an enquiry with a 'hell, yeah I'll take one! get the knives, simple as that. The point is, THAT would really have honoured the 'first come, first served' principle, not this other route they went down. I just think they wanted the cash ASAP and walked all over a lot of people who had patiently waited over a YEAR for a shot at those that were left over.

Buffalo,
I agree with you that it didn't work well...but, think about the silliness that could have ensued in the other scenario:
KW has 'x' knives that pre-orderers flaked on...they send e-mails to the first 'x' people on the list...how long should they wait for responses? What about the poor guy who is on vacation? He'd pitch a fit too. There isn't a 'good', 'fair' AND business friendly way to do it.
I know for a fact I was first or second on the back-up list because when I asked Ashley (?) to be put on it after missing the pre-order she told me I was the first one (unless she lied to give me hope?). I was ROYALLY po'd when I found out they weren't going to offer the leftovers in order...but...I don't think there is a good way to do it. KW is a business. If a sprint run takes too many man-hours they end up losing money on it and then they won't do any more; and at $140 they can't have been making a giant profit on this knife to begin with.
I feel bad that you missed out, if I could have ordered more than one, I would have, so that I could contact other 'users' to sell to them at cost. Seriously. Think about it. The flippers are making what? $150-160 right? On ONE sale...if they're so hard up for cash that $150 is enough to screw over a fellow knife-nut...well, so be it.
I would like to see something constructive come out of all the drama generated by this knife...maybe a creative person could think of a business friendly way for KW and other companies to handle sprint runs. Otherwise they will end up doing it like Bento...just charging enough on the front end that flippers can't make enough to justify the time.
 

russde

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,047
You're p.o.'d, I get it. But really, if KW just 'wanted the cash ASAP' they would have jacked the price up to $250 (minimum) each and opened it up to everyone. Think/feel as you want, I think there was NO good solution.
...and that's all I have to say about that...as in, that's my last comment in this thread.
Best,
Russel
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
119
I ordered two on the first day of pre-orders and only got them today. Until my cc was charged 2 days ago, I was sweating bullets in case KW screwed up the order; apparently they didn't fulfill orders in sequence.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
729
Dude, in this day and age of mobile comms I cannot see how it would have been a problem to get in touch with people - at home, on vacation, or on the freaking moon. And then to simply go down the list. The guys who respond to an enquiry with a 'hell, yeah I'll take one! get the knives, simple as that. The point is, THAT would really have honoured the 'first come, first served' principle, not this other route they went down. I just think they wanted the cash ASAP and walked all over a lot of people who had patiently waited over a YEAR for a shot at those that were left over.

If they had REALLY wanted to "walk all over a lot of people " they could have simply sold them at the $250-$300 aftermarket price they are selling for.

Personally I commend them for not going down the profiteering path, they made them available for a lot less than the flippers sale them now for and the collectors will sale them for a few years down the road.
 
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bdmicarta

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
5,547
Spyderco has done nothing wrong, and we are lucky we have a company that gives us special runs with many types of steels. No other company does that for us.

Benchmade and ZT make knives with premium steels and make enough of them that you can buy them all day long anyday. You don't have to beg a retailer to put you on a waiting list. You don't have to pay inflated prices to flippers. You just go out and buy one when you are ready. I have the desire and finances to buy a knife right now, if Spyderco won't make the one that I want to buy then I'll take my money elsewhere.


Its just a knife

And we are just customers, with money. If they don't need us then we will go elsewhere. First rule of retail is to have the product that the customers want to buy. If they are trying to give you money, be sure that you can take it and don't force them to take their money to your competition. In this case we are forced to go to the competition.


even if they only gave people three or four days to reconnect and pay, it would reallly have dragged out for weeks, maybe months

I don't think they had enough to go for weeks. If you have 50 and you email 50 people, give them 3 days, lets say that 35 or 40 people respond and buy the knives. Now you have 10-15 left so you hit the next 10-15 people on the list. In another few days you have only 3 or 4 left. Find the next 3 or 4 people on the list and you're done. We've been waiting 16 months, if it takes an extra week or two to sell the remainder is that a big deal to KW? I'll bet they have knives in inventory that have been there for years.
 

FCM415

BANNED
Joined
Jul 9, 2012
Messages
1,985
Benchmade and ZT make knives with premium steels and make enough of them that you can buy them all day long anyday. You don't have to beg a retailer to put you on a waiting list. You don't have to pay inflated prices to flippers. You just go out and buy one when you are ready. I have the desire and finances to buy a knife right now, if Spyderco won't make the one that I want to buy then I'll take my money elsewhere.

Not true. Both companies make limited knives that are very hard to get also. Try getting a ZT777 or a ShotShow Grip for example. I have begged dealers like Kershawguy to put me on the list of several in the past. It just so happens that Paramilitary2's in particular are more sought after at this point. Let's not make this about Spyderco because it is not. KnifeWorks requested an exclusive run of 700 pieces and that's what they got. It took awhile but all of these companies have now learned not to disclose release dates anymore. And as far as premium steels, it's no contest, Spyderco offers the exotics to steel snobs the most.
 
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
1,751
The easiest way to deal with this in the future is to demand full-payment up front - that away, there is no backup list and there aren't over 100 folks who pre-order and flake later (not that there aren't legitimate excuses for folks canceling an order, but that's the whole reason there's a backup list in the first place).

Problem solved.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
823
Spyderco offers the exotics to steel snobs the most.

I would like to amend this. At least to me, it seems Spyderco offers the exotics and newest steels at low prices, which is what keeps bringing me back. You can get premium steels from other companies, if you're willing to pay for it but Spyderco somehow can offer their knives at such a small markup I wonder if they're even making money! Seriously, where else can you get a knife in CTS-XHP for under $100, ZDP-189 for under $50, Super Blue for $150, as well as all the other premium steels run as Mules, all of which I believe have been under $100. They may not be the flashiest knives but that's not what Spyderco is about. Spyderco is about the ELU and making sure they get the best knife for the best price they can. It's what keeps draining my bank account for sure at least :D
 

mongomondo

SUPPRESSING FIRE
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
3,227
I received my order yesterday! Quick shipping and both knives have perfect fit and finish. Great experience overall but man that was a looooong wait. It was a smooth experience for me though. I got a paypal notice asking me to pay the balance and then the knives showed up 3 days later.
 

bdmicarta

Gold Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
5,547
Not true. Both companies make limited knives that are very hard to get also. Try getting a ZT777 or a ShotShow Grip for example.

I've seen lots of the shotshow grips on sale for reasonable prices. They didn't automatically hit the sales forums at 130% markup like the PM2's did.

I have an M390 PM2 that I paid $180 for, I have an M390 Benchmade 581 that I pad $140 for. Hand those 2 knives to anyone that doesn't know the actual price and ask them what they think the relative price would be and they will tell you that the 581 probably cost twice what the PM2 cost. I have an M4 Gayle Bradley that I paid about $130 for, I have an M4 Benchmade 760 that I paid $140 for. Same thing- the Spyderco Military is the only Spyderco that compares to the Benchmade 760 and even with standard S30V steel it costs about 50% more. I have a ZT 0561 with Elmax. There is no Spyderco with similar amounts of production work except maybe the fluted military. My 0561 cost about $200 and they are sometimes available for less now. The Spyderco fluted military again is at least 50% higher. The 0777 is really the only ZT at this time that has that much demand and I don't understand it since that knife doesn't even appeal to me. My point was that if I wanted to buy a knife right now with uncommon steel, Spyderco only has the Gayle Bradley and no others available. Benchmade and ZT both have numerous models that you can buy off the shelf for good prices at many places.
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
197
I say screw the sprint paras and all the crap that comes with them. Theres a point where if the hobby and search for new knives becomes a pain and causes this much heartache for some than why keep bothering. For some different color G10? The flagship model paras are just as great. But even those knives have succumbed to this frenzy. Hell I only own the paramilitary 1 and thats just fine for me.

Really guys... Seeing people pay over $350 for a paramilitary is just crazy. I don't care how much carbon fiber or super steel it has. But yet every-time a sprint run is released the same cycle is started over with not enough being released and a week later seeing a 80% markup which some people still pay which justifies the price for some.
Its the same knife, costs Spyderco the same if not a very little more to produce. All the rest is hype.
 

Skywalker31

Basic Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
505
I've seen lots of the shotshow grips on sale for reasonable prices. They didn't automatically hit the sales forums at 130% markup like the PM2's did.

...

My point was that if I wanted to buy a knife right now with uncommon steel, Spyderco only has the Gayle Bradley and no others available. Benchmade and ZT both have numerous models that you can buy off the shelf for good prices at many places.

Won't get into the prices, but this I do kind of disagree with...

As far as "uncommon" steel goes, what about the ZDP-189 Dragonfly, Ladybug, Delica, Endura, Caly 3, Caly 3.5? S90V Southfork? CTS-XHP Chaparral and Techno? Elmax Lionspy? And of course you've already mentioned the CPM-M4 Gayle Bradley folder and Gayle Bradley Air. Southard's getting harder to find, so I guess you can't really just go out to any dealer and get CTS-204P at the moment.

Benchmade has M390 in the 581/586, and CPM-M4 in the 810.

ZT uses Elmax in the 056x and in some of their new, upcoming stuff, and CPM-3V in the 0100.

As far as buying a production knife, available right now, with an "uncommon" steel, I don't think Spyderco's doing too shabby at all.
 
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