Paragon kiln problem

SVanderkolff

SVanderkolff

Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
979
I purchased a new paragon knifemakers kiln this past summer and up until today it has worked perfectly. I have fired it about a dozen times so far. Today I set the kiln to ramp up at full to 1900 then hold for 1 hour. It started fine, then I went upstairs for supper. When I came down the kiln showed it was in the hold but the temp was dropping. It was down to 1600 degrees so I tried to restart the kiln. I could not get the elements to fire. The kiln was getting power since the sentry 2 controller was still operating. Once it had cooled down enough for me to be comfortable I tried the Options, Elements test and still could not get the elements to fire. I tried shutting down the power tothe kiln and then restarting a new firing but still nothing. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Steve
 
I'd start by looking for any connections (especially screw ) that may have worked loose with heat cool cycles.

Wiggle and pull every connection and see what that gets you.

Check the element for any broken turns, they can get brittle so be gentle.
(probably the most obvious and common)



If it's not obvious then I'd start with a meter

Turned on, controller on , set so it should be running power to the elements, check voltage across them.

No power there when it should be, check the door safety switch
and then both sides of the relay

If you've got power there running power to the elements, but no heat out I'd really look at the elements.

Do a continuity or resistance on the elements and see if the resistance is close to what the new elements should be.

Which model of kiln ? We should be able to find specifications.

http://www.paragonweb.com/files/wiringdiagrams/WKM24D.PDF
 
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it is the KM24D . Unfortunately I am not an electrician so I couldn't follow most of what you suggested but I will try and test out the closed door switch tomorrow night and open up the control to see if there is anything obvious. The elements should be okay , it is a virtually new kiln.
Thanks for the help
Steve
 
SVanderkolff said:
The elements should be okay , it is a virtually new kiln.
Click to expand...

Being as it is new the whole kiln should ALL be OK, but since it's broken, don't assume anything.

Elements are the greatest fail point. Once they get fired, they can go brittle.
Check where they connect to the binding posts and inside if there are any staples or stretch points.

Do you own a meter ?

Here's the diagram

It's all about following the lines
http://www.paragonweb.com/files/wiringdiagrams/WKM24D.PDF


If you have a meter we can walk through it.

It's all about a systematic approach, starting with something known and working through it with a plan from the simplest to the most difficult.
The diagram helps a lot

It's all simple stuff that works or won't but it can all be a point of failure.
Element
Door switch
Relay
controller

It's not likely the thermocouple since you cant turn the elements on even in test mode.


First = check the element
With no power on, unplugged
See the diagram shows 16 Ohms across the two connection posts to the elements
Set your meter to Ohms Resistance, 16 or so is OK, infinite is bad, zero would be bad, but not likely in this case.
Bad element? change it.


Then 1B
Close the door, Plug it in, turn it on, set it so the heat should run - test coils setting ? try that.
Set the meter to 240vAC
Put the test points on the binding posts to the elements
Power there, but no heat? bad element or bad connection to it.



Second = check the door switch
With no power on, unplugged same resistance setting as point 1
test the door switch, infinite when the door is open, and close to zero when the door is closed.
It may be handy to just use your finger to press the switch in and out, but that won't tell you everything.
If that switch needs adjustment shimming in and out you need to test it the way it actually works.


Third = check the power to the relay
Close the door, Plug it in, turn it on, set it so the heat should run - test coils setting ? try that.
Set the meter to 24vDC
Measure at the pin 0 and 1 where it says coil on the relay, 0 is bad, 24VDC is good.
If you get that, then the control power supply,fuse, control, door switch are all working
you may not actually be able to poke the leads onto the relay, trace the wires back to a point you can test, like the door switch and where the red wire connects to the controller.


Forth = if check 3 gives you 24VDC check the relay itself
The 24 VDC to the input of the relay means the switch should be ON
change the meter settings and range to read at least 240 VAC to test the output of the relay
Put your pointers at pin 8 and 4, that should show 240 VAC or so- that means you have it plugged in and the wall fuses are OK
Put your pointers at pin6 and 2, if you can't reach them test at the binding posts where those wires are connected to the elements
if you get 240 VAC there it means everything is OK and the elements should be on.
If you got 24VDC on the control side, but nothing on the output, the relay is bad.

If you need a relay, pull it out - it should be on a socket, read the numbers off it and we can find a new one faster cheaper and better than the one paragon will sell you.

Fifth
If all those checks are ok, you need an element
go back and see if you can find the break or bad connection.
 
Last edited:
Mine did the same type of thing... it was the door kill switch. It was shorting out... essentially it was telling the controller that the door was open even though it wasn't.

On a side note about your kiln, as far as time and temp goes- they make 3 elements for the 24. I replaced mine with the 2nd one in the series, because it heats the kiln fast, but also holds temp well.
 
NickWheeler said:
Mine did the same type of thing... it was the door kill switch. It was shorting out... essentially it was telling the controller that the door was open even though it wasn't.

On a side note about your kiln, as far as time and temp goes- they make 3 elements for the 24. I replaced mine with the 2nd one in the series, because it heats the kiln fast, but also holds temp well.
Click to expand...


A bad switch
That would be an "open" then not a "short" ?
 
Thanks guys
I will try and get to it this evening. What is the meter you are talking about? I may have , if not I will buy one.
Steve
 
Steve,
If you don't know what "meter" we are talking about, and you are not familiar with 220 volt wiring and the dangers.....get a friend with a multi-meter to come over and check it for you.
 
SVanderkolff said:
Thanks guys
I will try and get to it this evening. What is the meter you are talking about? I may have , if not I will buy one.
Steve
Click to expand...

bladsmth said:
Steve,
If you don't know what "meter" we are talking about, and you are not familiar with 220 volt wiring and the dangers.....get a friend with a multi-meter to come over and check it for you.
Click to expand...

Stacy's got a good point, but I think everyone should own and know how to use one.

Even if you only use it to test your switch and elements resistance (which you can do with the power off and unplugged)

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...OVR~0251031P/Digital+Multimeter.jsp?locale=en
 
I'll be the first to admit I am probably too much of an electrical hack to be giving any advice. I know the lingo is super important here and I'm not up to speed on it... I just wanted to point out that the problems Steve is having with his Paragon sound a lot like the problems I was having with mine when the door switch was bad.
 
NickWheeler said:
I'll be the first to admit I am probably too much of an electrical hack to be giving any advice. I know the lingo is super important here and I'm not up to speed on it... I just wanted to point out that the problems Steve is having with his Paragon sound a lot like the problems I was having with mine when the door switch was bad.
Click to expand...

I'm just nit picking ya :)
 
NUmbers
Here are the results of the tests.
Element checked out okay.
test 1B - meter read 0 no power to the elements
door switch - 0 door closed, 300 door open - not sure what that means
power to the relay - this read 0 no power going to the relay?
pin 8 and 4 read 190 on my meter
pin 6 and 2 read 0

having no idea what I am talking about it sounds like there is no sognal coming from the door to the relay to tell it to turn on, is that right?

By the way when I talked to USAKnifemaker Supply at Knifedogs where I got the kiln, they talked to Paragon who sent me a new relay no charge expidited shipping. I got the new relay today and tried it, no change, still did not work which is why I am now learning how to use a multimeter.

I really appreciate the help.
Steve
 
12345678910 said:
Being as it is new the whole kiln should ALL be OK, but since it's broken, don't assume anything.

Elements are the greatest fail point. Once they get fired, they can go brittle.
Check where they connect to the binding posts and inside if there are any staples or stretch points.

Do you own a meter ?

Here's the diagram

It's all about following the lines
http://www.paragonweb.com/files/wiringdiagrams/WKM24D.PDF


If you have a meter we can walk through it.

It's all about a systematic approach, starting with something known and working through it with a plan from the simplest to the most difficult.
The diagram helps a lot

It's all simple stuff that works or won't but it can all be a point of failure.
Element
Door switch
Relay
controller

It's not likely the thermocouple since you cant turn the elements on even in test mode.


First = check the element
With no power on, unplugged
See the diagram shows 16 Ohms across the two connection posts to the elements
Set your meter to Ohms Resistance, 16 or so is OK, infinite is bad, zero would be bad, but not likely in this case.
Bad element? change it.


Then 1B
Close the door, Plug it in, turn it on, set it so the heat should run - test coils setting ? try that.
Set the meter to 240vAC
Put the test points on the binding posts to the elements
Power there, but no heat? bad element or bad connection to it.



Second = check the door switch
With no power on, unplugged same resistance setting as point 1
test the door switch, infinite when the door is open, and close to zero when the door is closed.
It may be handy to just use your finger to press the switch in and out, but that won't tell you everything.
If that switch needs adjustment shimming in and out you need to test it the way it actually works.


Third = check the power to the relay
Close the door, Plug it in, turn it on, set it so the heat should run - test coils setting ? try that.
Set the meter to 24vDC
Measure at the pin 0 and 1 where it says coil on the relay, 0 is bad, 24VDC is good.
If you get that, then the control power supply,fuse, control, door switch are all working
you may not actually be able to poke the leads onto the relay, trace the wires back to a point you can test, like the door switch and where the red wire connects to the controller.


Forth = if check 3 gives you 24VDC check the relay itself
The 24 VDC to the input of the relay means the switch should be ON
change the meter settings and range to read at least 240 VAC to test the output of the relay
Put your pointers at pin 8 and 4, that should show 240 VAC or so- that means you have it plugged in and the wall fuses are OK
Put your pointers at pin6 and 2, if you can't reach them test at the binding posts where those wires are connected to the elements
if you get 240 VAC there it means everything is OK and the elements should be on.
If you got 24VDC on the control side, but nothing on the output, the relay is bad.

If you need a relay, pull it out - it should be on a socket, read the numbers off it and we can find a new one faster cheaper and better than the one paragon will sell you.

Fifth
If all those checks are ok, you need an element
go back and see if you can find the break or bad connection.
Click to expand...

SVanderkolff said:
NUmbers
Here are the results of the tests.
Element checked out okay.
test 1B - meter read 0 no power to the elements
door switch - 0 door closed, 300 door open - not sure what that means
power to the relay - this read 0 no power going to the relay?
pin 8 and 4 read 190 on my meter
pin 6 and 2 read 0

having no idea what I am talking about it sounds like there is no sognal coming from the door to the relay to tell it to turn on, is that right?

By the way when I talked to USAKnifemaker Supply at Knifedogs where I got the kiln, they talked to Paragon who sent me a new relay no charge expidited shipping. I got the new relay today and tried it, no change, still did not work which is why I am now learning how to use a multimeter.

I really appreciate the help.
Steve
Click to expand...

"door switch - 0 door closed, 300 door open - not sure what that means"
If you tested on the Ohms, resistance scale, Omega symbol
That means the door switch is working properly- when the door is shut there is no resistance to the power flowing


I agree it sounds like there is no signal turning the relay on, and the 0 ohms resistance with the door closed means the switch is OK


Transformer, or controller ?



Trey contacting Paragon and asking for test voltages from the transformer, for the orange, blue, white leads

orange to blue, blue to white, orange to white testing for vac
I suspected that if you can go through the programs on the controller, power supply to it is OK, but 3 wires could mean 2x voltages


I should have typed AC not DC-repeat this one with the meter on AC

Third = check the power to the relay
Close the door, Plug it in, turn it on, set it so the heat should run - test coils setting ? try that. -that eliminates the TC as a possibility

Is there an indicator on the display that shows the coils should be on?

Set the meter range to 24vAC
Measure at the pin 0 and 1 where it says coil on the relay, 0 is bad, 24VAC is good.
If you get that, then the control power supply,fuse, control, door switch are all working
you may not actually be able to poke the leads onto the relay, trace the wires back to a point you can test, like the door switch and where the red wire connects to the controller.




and also where the black and red wires exit the controller
24vac output would be good, 0vac and it seems as if the controller output has failed
 
Last edited:
Steve Pins 8 and 4 on the relay should read 240 volts ac or there abouts since you're only getting 190 across these two check the voltage at the wall outlet and see what you have there.
 
SVanderkolff said:
retested at 24vac still no reading.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming we've not made any silly mistakes and you obviously know how to run the controller.


Right now it looks like either transformer, or controller


If they get back to you with the expected transformer voltages you can tell which one.
by testing the transformer voltages

I suspect that if you can go through the programs on the controller, power supply to it is OK, but 3 wires could mean 2x voltages
It's possible there is one voltage for the controller and a second for the relay input.

Contact Paragon and ask for test voltages from the transformer, for the orange, blue, white leads
for every combination of those
orange to blue
blue to white
range to white
testing for vac



Something else I would try, but I don't know if you're up to it.
If you have tested all the transformer output combos and it matches their specs.

Id connect the 24vac with jumper wires to the relay input temporally with a jumper,
If your diagnosis is right and everything else works, that should energize the relay and the coils should fire







After that, see what paragon will do for you, you may need a new controller
 
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