Patch knives - food for thought

[Scott Hanson]

Ok, this thread is and off shoot of the suggestion box thread. I would like to keep this thread specific to patch style knives, and the suggestion box as a place to let your imaginations run a little wild. These are photos I pulled off of the internet of different style patch knives for the purpose of ideas. Let me know what your thoughts are. I will be working tonight but i will be around this weekend. The prices of these pictured knives run the gamut from $36.00 to $417.00 a piece.



These next photos are a knife I made for a Blade forums member here a while back it has a 3" blade and I believe over all length of 7", Scagel style knife. It has an AEB-L blade, hidden tang stacked leather handle and a soldered on guard. It also comes with a hand tooled leather sheath. These photos are for a starting point in the design process. Handle configurations can include crown, round, tine or crotch stag. Prices for this would be around $200.00, let me know what your thoughts are.

 

[Mack]

I'm picturing a knife like the last one pictured with a thin, upswept blade similar to the original Randall blade shape. I'm practically drooling thinking about it.

 

[Scott Hanson]

I'm picturing a knife like the last one pictured with a thin, upswept blade similar to the original Randall blade shape. I'm practically drooling thinking about it.

Hi, Mack I'm heading to work right now I'll have couple days off off after tonight. Post a pic of the knife that's on your mind.

 

[Pàdruig]

I've been thinking long and hard about this - especially after I was reading in the Suggestion Box.

Patch Knives in general are an interesting topic. Some say they are a bit of an anachronism, a product born of the '70s era interest in Fur Trade living history. Others say that there likely wasn't any "special knife" for trimming patches but there certainly was no small variety of small blades for utilitarian uses - including trimming patches should the need arise. In all of my black powder experience, a properly sized ball negates the need for any patch but then not everyone back in the day had ready access to properly sized shot.

Regardless, a Patch Knife is a useful small blade for everyday use and I would be interested in seeing how this project develops.

There are good looking examples with Stag crowns, tines, and rounds and it is difficult to really know which direction I might chose. You have pictured above, an example from one maker that I am somewhat familiar with. I really like his stuff and his use of iron bolsters and small crown Stag is pretty handsome, in my opinion.

Here are some of his other pieces.

The reason I feel like I am leaning towards either Stag crown or round for an ideal patch style knife is that I like the some fullness in the hand and the taper that a tine naturally has may not be as comfortable as the other two options - depends on the thickness of it though.

This one is a little different in where he uses "scales" that are pinned to the tang, if I am not mistaken.

 

[Pàdruig]

Here are a few more modern types (I am not familiar with the makers) - Scagel styling (from what I understand) and different blade shapes.

 

[Mack]

Hi, Mack I'm heading to work right now I'll have couple days off off after tonight. Post a pic of the knife that's on your mind.

Basically I'm picturing a bird and trout size version of this

with perhaps a brow tine instead of a crown.
Perhaps a Schrade Sharpfinger sized blade.

 

[Bigfattyt]

I like this thread very much.

 

[Scott Hanson]

I've been thinking long and hard about this - especially after I was reading in the Suggestion Box.

Patch Knives in general are an interesting topic. Some say they are a bit of an anachronism, a product born of the '70s era interest in Fur Trade living history. Others say that there likely wasn't any "special knife" for trimming patches but there certainly was no small variety of small blades for utilitarian uses - including trimming patches should the need arise. In all of my black powder experience, a properly sized ball negates the need for any patch but then not everyone back in the day had ready access to properly sized shot.

Regardless, a Patch Knife is a useful small blade for everyday use and I would be interested in seeing how this project develops.

There are good looking examples with Stag crowns, tines, and rounds and it is difficult to really know which direction I might chose. You have pictured above, an example from one maker that I am somewhat familiar with. I really like his stuff and his use of iron bolsters and small crown Stag is pretty handsome, in my opinion.

Here are some of his other pieces.

The reason I feel like I am leaning towards either Stag crown or round for an ideal patch style knife is that I like the some fullness in the hand and the taper that a tine naturally has may not be as comfortable as the other two options - depends on the thickness of it though.

This one is a little different in where he uses "scales" that are pinned to the tang, if I am not mistaken.

Hi Dylan, I don't know a lot about the black powder era or even patch knives to be honest with you. But the one thing I do know is that was an era large Bowie style knives being popular due to the inherent unreliability muzzle loaders of the day. Most solders and mountain men had a large knife as a back up incase they're muzzle loader failed to fire which was not that uncommon back in the day. I believe it was the invention of cartridge ammunition that changed all that and made large knives pretty much obsolete. A large blade knife was a necessity back then but still not real versatile for day to day chores. A mountain man had have a smaller general purpose knife as well, one that he could carry in a possible bag.

 

[Scott Hanson]

Basically I'm picturing a bird and trout size version of this

with perhaps a brow tine instead of a crown.
Perhaps a Schrade Sharpfinger sized blade.

Hi Mack, yes a bird and trout knife like can be done, with that blade and handle style.

 

[Scott Hanson]

Here are a few more modern types (I am not familiar with the makers) - Scagel styling (from what I understand) and different blade shapes.

Ok, I don't know who the maker of the SE knives are, but those are very good example of what can done in a patch knife style, Now the other four knives you posted two for sure are Behring made in Montana, and probably the third one in the middle that's not marked is most likely also a Behring made knife. Now the bottom photo with the antler tine with a thong hole is most like made by John Greco, I don't know if he is still making knives any more I can't find much info on him. Now to make my opinion known, I would say Behring made knives are pretty much the gold standard in Scagel style knives. My opinion is that they are exactly what a Scagel style knife should be. Kind of a measuring stick for others to stack up against, meaning there are makers out there making better knives fit and finish wise, but truth of the matter is most are not. These are just my thoughts on this.

 

[RayseM]

... and you know there are some unknown makers out there putting hundreds of hours into their perfect knives. Flea market finds for future generations - most who won't know what they have, but that it looks cool

Speaking of looks cool - Pàdruig - you have posted some great ones (from the looks, anyway).

 

[Pàdruig]

Ok, I don't know who the maker of the SE knives are, but those are very good example of what can done in a patch knife style, Now the other four knives you posted two for sure are Behring made in Montana, and probably the third one in the middle that's not marked is most likely also a Behring made knife. Now the bottom photo with the antler tine with a thong hole is most like made by John Greco, I don't know if he is still making knives any more I can't find much info on him. Now to make my opinion known, I would say Behring made knives are pretty much the gold standard in Scagel style knives. My opinion is that they are exactly what a Scagel style knife should be. Kind of a measuring stick for others to stack up against, meaning there are makers out there making better knives fit and finish wise, but truth of the matter is most are not. These are just my thoughts on this.

The SE marked knives are made by Shane Emig from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading - the folks over there make some pretty impressive knives, as well as rifles.

Thank you for the info on the other knives. I think I did come across the name Behring Made when perusing pictures. Not being overly familiar with Scagel styling quite yet (I am learning), the knives simply looked well made and somewhat in line with the topic here.

 

[Mack]

The SE marked knives are made by Shane Emig from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading - the folks over there make some pretty impressive knives, as well as rifles.

Thank you for the info on the other knives. I think I did come across the name Behring Made when perusing pictures. Not being overly familiar with Scagel styling quite yet (I am learning), the knives simply looked well made and somewhat in line with the topic here.

The Behrings, Jim and James, also known as Treeman knives make some absolute beauties. They also rehandle quite a few Randalls.
I've coonfingered quite a few of their blades and although I truly love their convex grinds and olde tyme look, I don't think their fit and finish is as good as Scott's.
Scott, later this year we will need to talk about that bird and trout. I will certainly need one.

 

[Scott Hanson]

... and you know there are some unknown makers out there putting hundreds of hours into their perfect knives. Flea market finds for future generations - most who won't know what they have, but that it looks cool

Speaking of looks cool - Pàdruig - you have posted some great ones (from the looks, anyway).

Yes garage sales and rummage sales are great places to look, IIRC someone in Kenosha WI, next town over from bought a painting at a rummage sale for a few bucks and turned out to be a Monet worth a couple million dollars.

 

[Scott Hanson]

The SE marked knives are made by Shane Emig from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading - the folks over there make some pretty impressive knives, as well as rifles.

Thank you for the info on the other knives. I think I did come across the name Behring Made when perusing pictures. Not being overly familiar with Scagel styling quite yet (I am learning), the knives simply looked well made and somewhat in line with the topic here.

Shane does very nice work, and like Mack and I said Behring knives are great knives, and I consider Behring made the gold standard.

Now William Wales Scagel is considered to be the grand father of custom made knives at least in this country. Finding a genuine Scagel knife at a garage sale or flea market would be like finding a pot of gold, I've seen Scagel knives sell for almost $50,000.00.

A lot of very nice knives have been shared in this thread so for and we can keep them coming. But just a side note to all I do not copy other makers work as a courtesy to that maker, unless I have permission from them to do so. I will make similar knives, and may use some ideas a I think almost all makers and artists do. And with the Randall first made tribute knife I did get permission from Randall knives to reproduce it, thats why it looks really close to the original. But the good news is that new designs aren't all that difficult to come up with.

 

[Scott Hanson]

The Behrings, Jim and James, also known as Treeman knives make some absolute beauties. They also rehandle quite a few Randalls.
I've coonfingered quite a few of their blades and although I truly love their convex grinds and olde tyme look, I don't think their fit and finish is as good as Scott's.
Scott, later this year we will need to talk about that bird and trout. I will certainly need one.

No problem Mack, I can make one for you.

 

[Scott Hanson]

Just a heads up, I lost my cell phone early this morning some time probably at work, it hasn't showed up yet so I won't be able to post any new pics until I find it or replace it. Not a big problem but a pain in the but.

 

[Mack]

Good luck finding it. Hopefully you work with honest folks.

 

[Scott Hanson]

Good luck finding it. Hopefully you work with honest folks.

I found it about ten minutes ago, it was buried in a pile of laundry. I'm going o have to be more careful with it.

 

[Pàdruig]

A lot of very nice knives have been shared in this thread so for and we can keep them coming. But just a side note to all I do not copy other makers work as a courtesy to that maker, unless I have permission from them to do so. I will make similar knives, and may use some ideas a I think almost all makers and artists do. And with the Randall first made tribute knife I did get permission from Randall knives to reproduce it, thats why it looks really close to the original. But the good news is that new designs aren't all that difficult to come up with.

Within every knifemaker, there is an artist. Short of making a replica of a notable piece, I've always understood that a quality knifemaker is one who puts a bit of themselves into their craft - a piece can lose its soul if it is simply a copy of another's work.

Years ago, I reached out to a British maker to have him make me an early circa 1700s Scottish dirk. I provided him with pics of originals and he informed me that he also had ready access to museums and such over there. However, he also stated that though he would maintain the spirit of the originals, he would still be infusing his own sense of artistry into the piece.

The end result was a piece that I was (and still am) immensely happy with - a dirk that is an excellent portrayal of the dirks of the period and culture but also in possession of the soul of the maker, if that makes any sense...