Pekiti Tirsia Kali vs Sayoc Kali

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dark_hadou

Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Messages
13
wats the difference between them ? they look the same i kno that Chris Sayoc trained in Pekiti Tirsia long time ago
 
dark_hadou said:
wats the difference between them ? they look the same i kno that Chris Sayoc trained in Pekiti Tirsia long time ago
Click to expand...

Strange title for a thread, it is written to be provocative, yes?
It kind of reminds me of the other thread you started here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408537

about "pure blade systems"

Except this time you unfortunately made an error in stating that Sayoc and PTK "look the same".

What looks the same?
The Training Rig?
The Transition Drills?
The Templates?
The Sama Sama format?
The Tactical Curriculum?
The Film Choreography?
The Projectile Training Modifiers?
The Melee format?
The Training Blades?
The Terminology?
The Tomahawk curriculum?
The Whip curriculum?
The Karambit curriculum?
The Silak curriculum?
The Medical Management courses?
The Four Man Drills?
The Ranking System?
The Training Group format?
The Stick Grappling curriculum?

I mean we're talking about a couple of decades of complete separation here.
Please specify... thanks.

Tuhon Sayoc trained in PTK when he was a teenager.
He enjoyed his time training it, but that was over 25 years ago!
He also had many other mentors in FMA.
He has been quoted as stating the biggest outside influence on him was meeting GM Cacoy Canete of Doce Pares.

Btw, there are similar threads on this forum which have been around longer than the time Tuhon Sayoc trained in PTK. :D

I think it is best to say that although he respects all those who are his elders, there IS such a thing as evolution and a distinct Sayoc methodology all its own. Understandably, that to someone new, you may have seen something you thought was the same, but it's rather obvious to the trained eye that there are marked differences in training methods and material.

It is safe to say that people can get pretty good with the blade training either system (in fact, MANY other systems!). The best thing to do is actually TRAIN... period.


--Rafael--
 
No I don't think it was provocative title.

We tend to think the term "versus" as in a battle rather to compare or understand the two subjects.

S/F,
CEYA!
 
dark_hadou said:
wats the difference between them ? they look the same i kno that Chris Sayoc trained in Pekiti Tirsia long time ago
Click to expand...

There are many similarities of course, they are both very aggressive blade systems, with origin in the Philippine Islands.

Both believe in multiple blade carry.

Both specialize in close quarter work, although both systems have long blade and long range tactics

Both use a cross hand basic tapping movement in response to blade attacks.

Footwork differs as Sayoc does not use the open knee side step when tapping
and does not tap the blade arm with more than one hand at a time.

The main differences are that each system has its own drills and methods of training the various skills needed to use a blade effectively. I believe both systems will produce very good fighters with the proper amount of time and effort on the part of the trainee and trainer.

Although Tuhon Chris trained with Tuhon Leo and was exposed to Pekiti Tirsia, Tuhon Leo was at the same time being exposed to Sayoc Kali. I'm sure both parties left with ideas and tactics from the others. And there were many others around at the same time not just FMA's but also Silat guys I'm sure they influenced both systems as well.

It really does not matter in the long run there has been so many other influences in the past twenty years neither system looks the same at close inspection or is taught the same now, as it was then, so it does not make much difference.

No one who is a pure Sayoc can walk into a Pekiti school and demonstrate PTK for the instructor nor could a pure PTK practitioner walk into a Sayoc school and show the curriculum. So of course they are not the same.

I say pure because there are PTK practitioners who also train in Sayoc. Which is another good point, if they were the same why would anyone ever train in both.?

If you train hard in either system, you will be dangerous with a blade.
 
ceya one said:
No I don't think it was provocative title.

We tend to think the term "versus" as in a battle rather to compare or understand the two subjects.

S/F,
CEYA!
Click to expand...

I was taking it for how "versus" is defined, because "versus" literally means "against" in Latin.

In legal terms "versus" also applies to being "opposed" to the other.

So it translates as "so and so" against "so and so"

There is no direct relation to "comparison" or "understanding". "comparison" relates to similarities AND differences. However, DH clearly states in his post that he is specifically isolating the differences. One can also be against something and not really "understand" it.

So it was a provocative statement because stating that "it looks the same" (which is a false premise) and ONLY asking for differences is meant to provoke individuals to respond. Whether it is DH's intention or not. That is why I asked for more clarification.

--Rafael--
 
I'd like to contribute the following quotable quotes from my good friend and teacher, Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje:

"The philosophy of Kali is, 1) Health rather than sickness, and 2) Life rather than Death."

"I have no time for space."

"Swing your baston, make it sing; hit fast, hit hard; get in, and get out!"

I believe that he, and other great teachers of all styles and backgrounds would get a real kick (pardon the pun) out of this string where the debate rages over the meaning of "versus," and who started what thread, etc.

This is a good place to learn. Stay focused on your art, and train, open your eyes and ears, absorb what is useful. There is really so little time to learn what you hunger for. Leave the gossip to the old ladies and contesting one master against another to the days of "My dad can beat yours."

Blessings All... Mabuhay!
 
Sun Helmet said:
I was taking it for how "versus" is defined, because "versus" literally means "against" in Latin.

In legal terms "versus" also applies to being "opposed" to the other.

So it translates as "so and so" against "so and so"

There is no direct relation to "comparison" or "understanding". "comparison" relates to similarities AND differences. However, DH clearly states in his post that he is specifically isolating the differences. One can also be against something and not really "understand" it.

So it was a provocative statement because stating that "it looks the same" (which is a false premise) and ONLY asking for differences is meant to provoke individuals to respond. Whether it is DH's intention or not. That is why I asked for more clarification.

--Rafael--
Click to expand...

Rafael, Look at the *

LET US LOOK AT THE WORD VERSUS.

Versus:

Main Entry: ver·sus
Pronunciation: 'v&r-s&s, -s&z
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin, towards, against, from Latin, adverb, so as to face, from past participle of vertere to turn
1 : AGAINST

*2 : in contrast to or as the alternative of <free trade versus protection>

NOW LET US LOOK AT CONTRAST

Contrast

Main Entry: 1con·trast
Pronunciation: k&n-'trast, 'kän-"
Function: verb
Etymology: French contraster, from Middle French, to oppose, resist, alteration of contrester, from Vulgar Latin contrastare, from Latin contra- + stare to stand -- more at STAND

*transitive verb : to set off in contrast : compare or appraise in respect to differences <contrast European and American manners> -- often used with to or with <contrasting her with other women -- Victoria Sackville-West>
intransitive verb : to form a contrast
synonym see COMPARE
- con·trast·able /-'tras-t&-b&l, -"tras-/ adjective
- con·trast·ing·ly /-ti[ng]-lE/ adverb


Source Merriam-Webster dictionary

http://www.m-w.com/

-----------------------------------------

Definition
versus Show phonetics
preposition
1 (WRITTEN ABBREVIATION v or vs) used to say that one team or person is competing against another:
Tomorrow's game is Newcastle versus Arsenal.

2 (WRITTEN ABBREVIATION v or vs) used in legal cases to show who a person is fighting against:
Abortion was legalized nationally in the United States following the Roe versus Wade case.

*3 used to compare two things or ideas, especially when you have to choose between them:
private education versus state education

Source Cambridge Dictionary http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=88069&dict=CALD


S/F,
CEYA!
 
Ceya,

The point is that the thread post specifically asked for isolating the differences. In that context the first definition fit.

"I believe that he, and other great teachers of all styles and backgrounds would get a real kick (pardon the pun) out of this string where the debate rages over the meaning of "versus," and who started what thread, etc. "


LOL...
Fiveform, FMA is not fortune cookie based it is warrior based.

GT Gaje has a great quote about the "KI in Kali" is "to KILL".
That exemplies what FMA is all about ...survival.

Asking for clarifications online is what communication is all about.
No one is "raging"..... :yawn:

"Leave the gossip to the old ladies and contesting one master against another to the days of "My dad can beat yours."

My old lady can beat up your old lady.


--Rafael--
 
:D

Btw, to clarify I agree with Fiveforms on the last bit about the knitting needle type of inquiries.

The Sayoc POV (since that is the only one I can personally answer about) is that a student can train with as many styles or systems as they want. In the end it is about the student's journey and growth... NOT the instructor's. A system should be strong enough to withstand any outside training or influence. From there the student can make up their minds or develop their own responses and methods. Not in the sense that one goes outside the system in terms of teaching (if they wish to become an instructor of that system), but in how they apply their knifework in real life situations.

When the moment comes that you may have to utilize your training, your instructor(s) will not be holding your blade for you... so the decisions you make today may depend on whether they attend your funeral, or smile as you relate how your training saved your life.

So the Sayoc POV is not about the differences of systems at all, but about allowing the individual to become proficient so that they are capable of handling situations in which they were hazy about prior to their training. Whether they train only with us, or with several systems.

Focusing on differences was how Filipinos in the past were able to be conquered or taken advantage of by Spain... isn't it about time to grow beyond that mentality?

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
 
I agree to great extent with the latest post. I would say that any good system should actually be based on underlying universal principles of combat, and than al lthe differences between systems are actually the differences in individual expression/understanding of those principles. The study of differences, IMO, turns out to be more of a historical/ethnological/folkloric study, rather than functional.
 
This dosent explain the differences and probibly it has changed some in years that have past but the origin of the system seems to be the same.

This is what Grandtuhon Gaje says about this on a other forum.

(http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/forum/readmsg.php?id=394&pid=393&days=100000&js=0&lang=en)


I will personally reply this so that each one who may know the truth should understand what is the truth:

Chris Sayoc and his father including his brothers and sisters studied with me in New York City at their early stage of younger age where they were in Taekwondo and were at a certain age were blackbelts of Taekwondo. We had the school of pekiti-tirsia in Jamaica, Queens New York. Their foundation was pekiti-tirsia and the time they were under my guidance including his father Bo Sayoc where trained and for the first time they were expose to the art of Kali. We did lots of Demonstraiton in almost several activities in New York city specially the cultural activities. So on record what CRIS IS DOING NOW AND HIS FATHER OR HIS SISTERS OR BROTHERS RELATED TO THE FMA, the roots is Pekiti-Tirsia. Of course they can present another version of techniques in different interpretation but the bottom line is tracing their teachings in terms of flow drill and other mechanics, the root is Pekiti-Tirsia.

In so far as relationship is concern, I don't know how they evaluate their realationship to me, but when Bo Sayoc was in Manila, we talked in the phone in a very friendly manner and there was no animosity. As cultured filipino we don't consider differences in opinions as a mortal treatment but rather it is a sign of good and healthy relationship. But I hope that in all their teachings, the truth must always be the truth and I respect them for that.

I hope I satisfy your questions. To me the SAYOC KALI IS NOT A THREAT TO PEKITI-TIRSIA, they are helping me to promote the Pekiti-Tirsia, they believe that they are a part of the family of what is the kali family, the indigenous art of the Philippines, but if they talk about arnis and escrima that is a different story.



Best regards F
 
Hello Fredrik,

Yes, this is all well known. The Jamaica Queens schools was the Sayoc school, that taught several different arts and Taekwondo, boxing and even Judo were taught there.

During those days in the 70's there were also several Filipino cultural events that happened in the rear section of the school area. Many other prominent FMA masters were present, and welcomed in the Sayoc home, they also instructed Tuhon Sayoc in aspects of the various arts. So what GT Gaje is saying is basically true, he did teach Tuhon Sayoc, but again this was just one portion of his specific training throughout the years.

As for the differences, alot has already been written and discussed many times, but the best way for anyone to see any differences is to train under both arts and see for themselves.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve Lefebvre

www.Sayoc.com
www.Bujinkandojo.net
 
Great thread,
I kinda agree with this quote earlier...Originally Posted by Matt Lim
One is greater than the other but I'm not telling who. Better train with both to find out.
Salamat,
:thumbup:
 
It really dosn't matter, both systems are so different now. Its apples and oranges, both fruit, but different.
 
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