Performance?: M4 vs Cruwear Military
- Thread starter coiledwire
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coiledwire
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I took my cruwear from med to ultrafine on the sharpmaker at 30deg and got a decent mirror edge. It's sharp, no doubt. It dispatches paper, cardboard, and skin like a hot knife on butter.
Vegas, I'm very glad you're able to compare this with M4. Too bad there's no thanks/like counter here on BF. You'd earn a few here.
Here's the required pic of my edge
Vegas, I'm very glad you're able to compare this with M4. Too bad there's no thanks/like counter here on BF. You'd earn a few here.
Here's the required pic of my edge
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No worries at all. I'm very happy to do it. I'm just lucky enough to have acquired a M4 and a Cruwear, both in the Millie. It's literally a test that begs to be done!
The Mastiff
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It should be an interesting test between two very good slicing steels. Both have a nice bite to them.
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Ok, the rope is all over the floor, the cardboard is cut, the magazine paper is shredded, the hair on my leg should grow back. The clear winner, by a decisive knockout is: hahahaha, not yet. 
I started this test with no KNOWN biases. I own both knives so I don't think it would matter if I proved one was better than the other. That said, it wasn't a blind test, or a double blind etc. I tried to keep it fair. I started by taking both knives over my UF Sharpmaker stones 20 passes per side. I then stropped each side 10 times on my strop using green compound. I even reloaded the compound between knives so that they started AS equal as I could think. Both edges would easily push cut magazine paper. I like magazines because they are very thin paper and give a nice clean cut.
I started with my Cruwear Millie. I used 3/8 Manila. I know others use 5/8, but Home Depot only had 3/8. Besides, since both knives used the same rope, same day, the thickness isn't important. I used a soft white pine 2x4 as backing to minimize edge degradation. Very soft wood. The test was like this: 12 cuts through rope, then a few slices on mag paper to test sharpness, then 12 cuts etc. I immediately noticed what people talk about on edges being optimized for different types of cutting media. I had a screaming sharp edge that was difficult to cut the rope with. It wanted to slide over the rope with almost no bite. I figured I was in for a long morning. The Cruwear did its thing ok once I got my technique down. I started at the back ricasso area and made one long draw stroke to the tip. I ensured I was using the entire blade this way. The Cruwear made it to 252 cuts before it had any real "hitches" in it's paper cutting. I then, in an effort to move things along, took a cardboard box and made 12 long slicing cuts with the Cruwear. It did this fine, but at the end would noticeably catch on the paper, and it would not shave leg hair. Not bad I figure.
I then set up the M4 and started in on the rope. I immediately knew M4 was in a different league. It would practically push cut the rope, and I had to ensure I used the entire edge to keep the test valid. The M4 cut like a Banshee!! I had to go from testing every 12 cuts to testing every 20 because it was pointless to keep stopping. In order to keep the test valid I stopped at 252 cuts and performed my cardboard cutting again. Same box, same 12 cuts. I then cut the magazine paper. The M4 would still cleanly push cut the paper with just the weight of the knife, no pressure on my part. The M4 would not shave leg hair at this point, but it was still push cutting paper so I continued with the test. Another 50 cuts for a total of 302, and it was still going strong. I figured that a 50 cut margin of victory was very, very decisive, and stopped.
Some things I learned: edges should be optimized for what YOU use your knife for. The most beautiful mirrored 1 millionth micron polish is not the best edge for everything. In fact it is probably less useful outdoors because cutting flesh, rope, fiberous materials are cut MUCH better with some "teeth" on your edge. Second, M4 was a monster cutter, for ME, on this day, in this test, YMMV. Third, the Millie is a slicing machine. A FFG blade, heat treated well with a 4" blade will SLICE. Third, these tests are very time consuming and messy, but a great deal can be learned from actually using these knives and really seeing what works for what cutting media. Last, we live in PHENOMINAL times for steel. To make 302 cuts with a knife through very tough, fiberous material, cardboard, and magazine paper is truly incredible, and this is M4, not even S90V, or S110V, or K294(?). M4 isn't even one of Ankersons top 3-4 steels and its fantastic.
Hope you all enjoyed this. It's kind of long, but there's a lot of info to relay. I welcome comments and questions. I'm not anyone who thinks I know it all. This was my test, my rope, my time. I am ALWAYS open to learn and share info.
I started this test with no KNOWN biases. I own both knives so I don't think it would matter if I proved one was better than the other. That said, it wasn't a blind test, or a double blind etc. I tried to keep it fair. I started by taking both knives over my UF Sharpmaker stones 20 passes per side. I then stropped each side 10 times on my strop using green compound. I even reloaded the compound between knives so that they started AS equal as I could think. Both edges would easily push cut magazine paper. I like magazines because they are very thin paper and give a nice clean cut.
I started with my Cruwear Millie. I used 3/8 Manila. I know others use 5/8, but Home Depot only had 3/8. Besides, since both knives used the same rope, same day, the thickness isn't important. I used a soft white pine 2x4 as backing to minimize edge degradation. Very soft wood. The test was like this: 12 cuts through rope, then a few slices on mag paper to test sharpness, then 12 cuts etc. I immediately noticed what people talk about on edges being optimized for different types of cutting media. I had a screaming sharp edge that was difficult to cut the rope with. It wanted to slide over the rope with almost no bite. I figured I was in for a long morning. The Cruwear did its thing ok once I got my technique down. I started at the back ricasso area and made one long draw stroke to the tip. I ensured I was using the entire blade this way. The Cruwear made it to 252 cuts before it had any real "hitches" in it's paper cutting. I then, in an effort to move things along, took a cardboard box and made 12 long slicing cuts with the Cruwear. It did this fine, but at the end would noticeably catch on the paper, and it would not shave leg hair. Not bad I figure.
I then set up the M4 and started in on the rope. I immediately knew M4 was in a different league. It would practically push cut the rope, and I had to ensure I used the entire edge to keep the test valid. The M4 cut like a Banshee!! I had to go from testing every 12 cuts to testing every 20 because it was pointless to keep stopping. In order to keep the test valid I stopped at 252 cuts and performed my cardboard cutting again. Same box, same 12 cuts. I then cut the magazine paper. The M4 would still cleanly push cut the paper with just the weight of the knife, no pressure on my part. The M4 would not shave leg hair at this point, but it was still push cutting paper so I continued with the test. Another 50 cuts for a total of 302, and it was still going strong. I figured that a 50 cut margin of victory was very, very decisive, and stopped.
Some things I learned: edges should be optimized for what YOU use your knife for. The most beautiful mirrored 1 millionth micron polish is not the best edge for everything. In fact it is probably less useful outdoors because cutting flesh, rope, fiberous materials are cut MUCH better with some "teeth" on your edge. Second, M4 was a monster cutter, for ME, on this day, in this test, YMMV. Third, the Millie is a slicing machine. A FFG blade, heat treated well with a 4" blade will SLICE. Third, these tests are very time consuming and messy, but a great deal can be learned from actually using these knives and really seeing what works for what cutting media. Last, we live in PHENOMINAL times for steel. To make 302 cuts with a knife through very tough, fiberous material, cardboard, and magazine paper is truly incredible, and this is M4, not even S90V, or S110V, or K294(?). M4 isn't even one of Ankersons top 3-4 steels and its fantastic.
Hope you all enjoyed this. It's kind of long, but there's a lot of info to relay. I welcome comments and questions. I'm not anyone who thinks I know it all. This was my test, my rope, my time. I am ALWAYS open to learn and share info.
coiledwire
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Awesome! Thank you for putting this work in. There's so much more for me to learn and your report furthers my knowledge. The only M4 I have is on the Air, so tough for me to compare. I knew M4 is a performer, but I still enjoy using my cruwear.
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Thanks for taking the time to do this test Vegas Blade. Impressive results from the M4!
I have to wonder, paper test aside, how would they compare just cutting rope or cardboard until they could cut no more. In other words, how do they compare in retaining a working edge?
I have to wonder, paper test aside, how would they compare just cutting rope or cardboard until they could cut no more. In other words, how do they compare in retaining a working edge?
gooeytek
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Thank you for doing this test VB, I've been on the fence about acquiring the Cruwear Military and transplanting that blade onto another Ti Military like I did with my M4 and M390. Looks like it would be redundant at this point, and I'm considering letting the other ones go. It's a hard decision, but you helped to make it bearable .
.
coiledwire
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Agreed. Vegas, do you have any rope left?
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Thanks all. It was quite interesting to say the least. It has very definitely changed what I look for in an edge. For me now, it's Sharpmaker brown stones then a swipe or two to knock the burr off. It is a night and day difference what a little "tooth" will do for cutting performance.
I will do more tests another day. My forearms are tired. Thanks again everyone for being interested enough to follow this. A nerd with a couple blades in his garage and 50' of rope, that's me.
I will do more tests another day. My forearms are tired.
Thanks again everyone for being interested enough to follow this. A nerd with a couple blades in his garage and 50' of rope, that's me.
coiledwire
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Sweet, I'm not the only one!
Once your arms heal and if you're willing to do the test spketch suggested, let me know and I'll help to pitch in on the rope. :thumbup:
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Thanks all. It was quite interesting to say the least. It has very definitely changed what I look for in an edge. For me now, it's Sharpmaker brown stones then a swipe or two to knock the burr off. It is a night and day difference what a little "tooth" will do for cutting performance.
I will do more tests another day. My forearms are tired.
I am guessing that CRUWEAR will be closer to M4 with the coarser edge.
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Some things I learned: edges should be optimized for what YOU use your knife for.
snip
Second, M4 was a monster cutter, for ME, on this day, in this test, YMMV.
snip
I welcome comments and questions. I'm not anyone who thinks I know it all. This was my test, my rope, my time. I am ALWAYS open to learn and share info.
How incredibly refreshing. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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That would be an interesting re-comparison for sure. Was it Ankerson's tests where CTS-XHP outperformed S30V with a polished edge, but the roles were reversed and S30V came out on top when tested with coarse edges? Variables man. I've had knives in CPM-M4 and CPM-Cruwear now and would happily live out my days with either one in my pocket.
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Thanks for the testing, interesting comparison!
I would not take his Robe test as criterion.
I have had CTS-204P chip badly by cutting through some cheap plastic ware. I also have Elmax blade dulled by just have some fun chopping some chopsticks... I have done the same thing with the lower carbide/alloy and never have the same issue.
There are so many factor beside only vanadium carbide and Rockwell hardness that influence the edge holding of steel.
Anyway thank for the honestly test.