Phosphor bronze, Teflon or Nylotron

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iht@intekom.co.za

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Jun 19, 2004
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As far as I can see the majority of forum members are in favour of Phosphor bronze washers. However I beleive even some excellent custom folder makers still prefer teflon or nylotron. If you had your pick of a new custom folder what would you want and why. Is the hype about phosphor bronze really deserved, or is it just hype and gives you a stiffer movement with the illusion of better wear
 
Its true that bronze is the strongest (obviously), but when it gets a bur it can ruin your blade (cause grooves, uneven wear, etc.). All folders I have ever made I have used nylotron, never had a complaint, or a problem. never in years. Nylotron, or teflon will wear some, everyone who has worked with it extensivley knows it (or should). Bronze wears also, but not nearly what the synthetics will. When bronze breaks in it "fits" well, maintains tolerences well, etc. For many its a cost factor whether you use one, or the other. I, personally have never had problem using synthetics.
 
I had a Benchmade 885SBT Darkstar, and I liked it, a lot. I carried it every day for a year and a half and USED it. After a while, blade starts to feel "wobbly" not really flopping aroung, but I could sense movement on hard cuts. I take the thing apart and it has these weak looking nylon washers that had thinned out badly. My 520 has phosphor bronze washers, and it locks up tight, not even a hint of play. IMO it isn't really any stiffer once you have broken it in a little.
 
Kit Carson still uses teflon washers and I guess that about says it all! I still like the pb washers but they really need to be smooth. Nylatron washers may be the best of both worlds. Only reason I have problems with the teflon washers is that I tighten the pivots real tight and it sometimes compresses the teflon washer to the point of tearing it.
 
iht@intekom.co.za said:
As far as I can see the majority of forum members are in favour of Phosphor bronze washers.
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I don't think that's true. Most threads I've seen have had the consensus that it doesn't make a significant performance difference. The only way I can tell what kind of washers a knife has is by looking - they don't feel or operate any differently.
 
Julian Elliot said:
I don't think that's true. Most threads I've seen have had the consensus that it doesn't make a significant performance difference. The only way I can tell what kind of washers a knife has is by looking - they don't feel or operate any differently.
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One of the sentiments I've seen expressed is not the difference in smoothness, but that there can be problems caused by the compressibility of teflon & nylotron washers, versus phospher bronze.
 
As a machinist I will add a few comments. To get the best use out of phosphor bronze washers will require far tighter tolerances and this translates to more time in manufacture and assembly.

However , when done right, and used in a relatively clean inviroment in and around the pivot, phosphor bronze is hard to beat for smoothness and longevity.
 
The bronze washer knives I have are very, very smooth. Any knife needs a bit of time to break in and tweak before it feels just right though.

I had a Gerber AR with teflon washers - the handle is aluminum and the backspacer is part of one of the handle slabs, and the knife is linerless. It is very solid feeling but a nightmare to clean. I used the knife very heavily but it develooped bad wobble due to the washers wearing down - the more compressed liner was visibly warped.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
One of the sentiments I've seen expressed is not the difference in smoothness, but that there can be problems caused by the compressibility of teflon & nylotron washers, versus phospher bronze.
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That's really funny in a way, because Chris Reeve uses phosphor bronze in the Sebenza AND he uses a bushing around the pivot to maintain an exact distance that prevents excessive compression :) Belt & suspenders!
 
I don't know much about this subject, but over the years I've read a lot of conflicting opinions. I've always liked what bob terzuola said in a past thread on this subject:

"My preference has always been Nylatron. Teflon, as noted above is compressable and not very strong, though it is slick.
Bronze or any metal to metal requires lubrcant and this can attract and hold grit. I use a bit of dry lubricant but with nylatron, even this is superfluous.
Knives I send to the mid-east war zone go out bone dry to prevent grit attraction and they work just as slick as all my other knives.
I have adjusted and repaired folders of mine that are 10 or 12 years old ( real antiques) and even after rough duty, the washers are virtually unmarked with no measurable wear to them. Nylatron is a "filled"nylon with molybdenum di-sulphide, the black grease used when assembling gun barrels to receivers and designed for extreme lubrication applications.
A drawback to nylatron is that it only comes in a limited number of thicknesses. I have always used.020 to allow for easy cleanout of the pivot area."

Didn't bob write some kind of book on folders :)
 
Nosmo, you say that PB is good in a clean environment. Do you think that the synthetics would be better in a dirty environment? If so, why? I read above that if PB has a burr it will scratch up the pivot area, but why would that happen? PB is way softer than hardened steel.
 
Esav,

I don't think that the Sebenza, or any CRK folder for that matter, using a bushing and bronze phosphor washers too is comparable to a belt and suspenders at all. Using the bushing allows the pivot pin to be cranked down all the way, with no worries about makning it to tight. It is tight enough when it can't be tightened any further. Without the bushing the pivot could be made so tight that the folder would be very hard to open. The bronze washers allow thing to be tighter in general without worrying about distorting the washers.

Personally I don't really notice that big of a difference between them, given that all knives involved are of similiar quality. The smoothest folder I own is a Mayo TNT, so I gues my preference would be for whatever he uses. :D
 
Nosmo said:
As a machinist I will add a few comments. To get the best use out of phosphor bronze washers will require far tighter tolerances and this translates to more time in manufacture and assembly.

However , when done right, and used in a relatively clean inviroment in and around the pivot, phosphor bronze is hard to beat for smoothness and longevity.
Click to expand...
I know of one knife company that uses only phosphor bronze washers because of tolerance issues. Tight tolerances require materials with minimal size variation.
 
I started a thread like this about a year ago--just prior to last year's NYCKS. I then spoke to several makers at the show about the topic. Some were bronze users and for others, nylatron or teflon did the job. They all seemed to voice valid reasons for their decisions. I'm going to do the same at this year's show, since the topic interests me.

It's worthwhile noting that BM has moved to bronze for virtually all it's folders and some custom makers like Darrel Ralph also seem to be moving in the bronze direction as well.

I'm not really sure whether this is because of solid engineering data or whether it is a reaction to what the makers/manufacturers perceive what the "market" perceives and wants.

The jury sure seems to be still out on this ??? :confused:
 
I like bronze. No real reasoning behind it, I just like metal more tan plastic.
Bronze, Teflon, and Nylotron all seem to work very well.

Paul
 
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