Plain edge for cutting against hard surface

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

I am tired and slightly depress to repeatedly see others used sharp cutleries against ceramic/glass/granite/pan/concrete/metal.

An obvious partial solution is serrated edge. Partial because of bruise and tear attributes.

The other easy answer is to use proper/appropriate cutting techniques - i.e. use the cutting tool correctly. Can plain edge knives be more accommodating or there aren't much room for improvement?

I think, it's possible to design a modified plain edge (w/o introducing bruise & tear results) for use against hard surface. What's your take/design?

 

[KennyB]

Over Christmas this year I was at my friend's house and they had some steak knives that had convex serrations instead of the convex type you'd normally see. So instead of forming sharp, tearing teeth, they were rounded. But they worked really well because only the very tops of the circles would touch the plate, meanwhile all the edge that was on all but the very tip of the radius or in the valleys would remain untouched.

Wish I could think of the steak knife name...

 

[8steve88]

Over Christmas this year I was at my friend's house and they had some steak knives that had convex serrations instead of the convex type you'd normally see. So instead of forming sharp, tearing teeth, they were rounded. But they worked really well because only the very tops of the circles would touch the plate, meanwhile all the edge that was on all but the very tip of the radius or in the valleys would remain untouched.

Wish I could think of the steak knife name...

Sounds like the Kershaw scalloped serrations so maybe one of the KAI brands.

A pet hate of mine it using sharp knives on anything but wood or plastic resin cutting boards, serrated tableware by all means but don't use a plain edge on something that will blunt the edge please.

 

[mycough]

Age old problem my friend... I bought my mom four bamboo boards for Christmas. Every time I visit I sharpen her knives and the light bulb finally went on at thanksgiving when I heard her shun utility knife clicking on a corning"cutting" board. Now when I call I constantly remind her to use her new boards. I have my wife trained but don't tell her that. As to the mystery edge, if you figure that one out you will be rich. Russ

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Thanks Russ, Kenny and 8steve88! Making this goal more interesting & difficult, let's add requirements:

1. No tear (scallop edge might not work well for thin materials like newsprint & plastic wrap)

2. No bruise - to vegies/fruits/raw-meat/.. Basically want to preserve push cutting ability.

3. Not too difficult to sharpen to high sharpness.

4. Help extend edge-retention when use against cutting board or similar surfaces.

5. An usable blade tip/point.

Yeah Russ - it's sure age old poor plain edge problem. I sure hope rich is the outcome - for the world, but with certainty the inventor will make $1 for every $2+ spent. Well, inventors save your $ by divulge your secret here now

Over Christmas this year I was at my friend's house and they had some steak knives that had convex serrations instead of the convex type you'd normally see. So instead of forming sharp, tearing teeth, they were rounded. But they worked really well because only the very tops of the circles would touch the plate, meanwhile all the edge that was on all but the very tip of the radius or in the valleys would remain untouched.

Wish I could think of the steak knife name...

Age old problem my friend... I bought my mom four bamboo boards for Christmas. Every time I visit I sharpen her knives and the light bulb finally went on at thanksgiving when I heard her shun utility knife clicking on a corning"cutting" board. Now when I call I constantly remind her to use her new boards. I have my wife trained but don't tell her that. As to the mystery edge, if you figure that one out you will be rich. Russ

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

My favorite 'steak knife' is a thin, high-hollow-grind clip blade on a Case stockman ('75) pattern. In cutting on ceramic/stoneware, the only portion of the edge that makes contact with the plate is the apex of the 'belly' of the clip blade's profile. I started using the knife this way, after re-bevelling it to (likely) sub-30° inclusive, and it just so happened I was having steak for dinner after doing that re-bevelling. Was immediately curious as to how it'd handle the steak, so I tried it out. Laser-beam slicing, with next-to-nothing pressure applied. So, even the small 1/8" of edge that was touching the plate wasn't being ground hard into it. Some light stropping on a loaded strop was enough to tune it back up again (this is another reason why I like the simplicity of steels used in Case's folders; very, very easy to touch up). I also tried this with a couple of similarly re-bevelled and cheap paring knives, with stainless even softer than the Case. Due to the thin edge grind and the attendant minimal use of pressure, those even held up pretty well in the same use. This was an eye-opener to me, and contradicted my assumptions about using thin, plain edges for such purposes.

In watching other people use knives of either kind (plain or serrated) on steaks or other meat, I'm always noticing the tendency of many to really hammer the edge into the steak (AND plate), whether it's necessary or not. Watching that does make me cringe, in hearing the blade's edge CLACK against the plate. My own habits have been 're-calibrated' according to the slicing ability of the edge. Razor edges don't need much pressure to cut, so I use them accordingly, and the 'damage' is minimal as a result.


David

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

David - somehow I suspect you automatically cut steak using scalpel/straight-razor/obsedian with hardly any damage to the edge. High performance of thin blade&edge is time proven. Wouldn't it be fun if we have a usable blade will cut/scratch the plate, maybe that will stop ppl from cutting against hard surfaces.

 

[Colog]

I was tired of using serrated knives to cut my food. So I simply got more knife friendly dinner plates.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

:thumbup: Nice wooden plate & yum looking steak! These wood plates would work for meal-prep vegies and fruits too, except they are not dish washer friendly.

I was tired of using serrated knives to cut my food. So I simply got more knife friendly dinner plates.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David - somehow I suspect you automatically cut steak using scalpel/straight-razor/obsedian with hardly any damage to the edge. High performance of thin blade&edge is time proven. Wouldn't it be fun if we have a usable blade will cut/scratch the plate, maybe that will stop ppl from cutting against hard surfaces.

At least, it'd be nice if neither plate nor blade were damaged in doing so. I was watching my Dad (83 yrs. young) cut an apple with a Chicago Cutlery paring knife the other day. He placed the apple on the ceramic tile countertop, and just pressed the blade through it with force, SMACKING the edge on the ceramic tile. That paring knife, and all the others in my parents' block set, have been DULL for a couple decades, and I've really had to restrain myself from doing a little 'stealth midnight sharpening' of these; it drives me crazy just knowing they're so dull. My parents have some very old & stubborn habits about how they use their kitchen knives, and a new & sharp edge would last about 15 seconds in their hands. Not to mention, considering the way they casually handle these always-dull blades, they'd likely hurt themselves with a really sharp one anyway.


David

 

[Squashfan]

I was tired of using serrated knives to cut my food. So I simply got more knife friendly dinner plates.

Colog, man I laughed hard when I saw your dinner plates. I whole heartedly approve of your dinnerware. What kind of knife is that though? A Laguiole?

 

[pwet]

My favorite 'steak knife' is a thin, high-hollow-grind clip blade on a Case stockman ('75) pattern. In cutting on ceramic/stoneware, the only portion of the edge that makes contact with the plate is the apex of the 'belly' of the clip blade's profile. I started using the knife this way, after re-bevelling it to (likely) sub-30° inclusive, and it just so happened I was having steak for dinner after doing that re-bevelling. Was immediately curious as to how it'd handle the steak, so I tried it out. Laser-beam slicing, with next-to-nothing pressure applied. So, even the small 1/8" of edge that was touching the plate wasn't being ground hard into it. Some light stropping on a loaded strop was enough to tune it back up again (this is another reason why I like the simplicity of steels used in Case's folders; very, very easy to touch up). I also tried this with a couple of similarly re-bevelled and cheap paring knives, with stainless even softer than the Case. Due to the thin edge grind and the attendant minimal use of pressure, those even held up pretty well in the same use. This was an eye-opener to me, and contradicted my assumptions about using thin, plain edges for such purposes.

In watching other people use knives of either kind (plain or serrated) on steaks or other meat, I'm always noticing the tendency of many to really hammer the edge into the steak (AND plate), whether it's necessary or not. Watching that does make me cringe, in hearing the blade's edge CLACK against the plate. My own habits have been 're-calibrated' according to the slicing ability of the edge. Razor edges don't need much pressure to cut, so I use them accordingly, and the 'damage' is minimal as a result.


David

for eating on ceramic/whatever plates only comon sense dictates a straight edge. when using a wharncliffe or sheepfoot blade the only part touching the plate is the tip .... just let it dull your steack will be cut even with a dull tip as 99,99% of the meat will contact a sharp edge, the remaning 0,01% will easily be sheared between the dull tip and ceramic plate.

if not possible, as you said simple steels run on the soft side with thin geometry is the best option.

i have quite a lot of high carbide and/or high hardness steel knives ad they never ever touch a plate, but i also never eat with a serrated/ikea/whatever crappy tableware knife. this is part of the pleasure of a good meal, it´s more enjoyable with a beautifull sharp knife... even if the edge dulls.

 

[hank_rearden]

this is the best thread to mention it. one has to come up with a better definition of an EDC than just a small knife sharpened enough to split hair 4 times, and no foreseeable use besides cutting paper or soft plastic. while on a retreat with my extended family, we bought canned goods and then discovered there was no can opener and i was the only one of twelve people who brought a knife. it was my zdp endura; sharpened to 10 degrees either side and stropped to split atoms. well, i either use it or we don't eat the canned items so i cut the cans open and formed visible nicks on the edge from the belly to the tip. one can refuse to take out one's knife for little things like when a troglodyte needs a screw driver or a pry bar but there are things even less desirable than a ruined edge.

so, i re-profiled all my edges to 20 degrees per side: the three militaries, the 3.5 caly, the delica and my endura. it was far easier to sharpen them that way, i was removing less metal, and hopefully the edge will resist deformation better during unavaoidable mis-use.

 

[Skimo]

Ben Dale recommends running a fresh edge perpendicular to the ceramic rod included in the Edge Pro kit. I don't, but I suspect a slight cutting loss combined with the ability to resist rolls in the edge. I just reset the edges and steel then use the ceramic hone.

Bought a stack of plastic plates for $0.65 each, for most meals we use those now, the kids break about one dish a month each, I think so far the plates have paid for themselves.

 

[Colog]

Colog, man I laughed hard when I saw your dinner plates. I whole heartedly approve of your dinnerware. What kind of knife is that though? A Laguiole?

Yes, my girlfriend gave me a set of Laguiole knives from Williams-Sonoma. They're ok. Came dull, but I fixed that. My kids laughed too the first time I broke out the plates. But they've been a huge hit since. They all love using the razor sharp blades.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

For hard surfaces: S2 - sacrifice point #2 - will take the brunt of damaging impact on most usage.

For wood and other materials softer than steel: S2 & S3 will help limit the edge penetration.

S1&s2 protect edge near the thin tip.

For extra protection - you can carefully make sharpen s1+s2+s3 at obtuse angle.



All steaks you can cut on plate. Meal prep on counter/plate/etc.. as you wish.

Would this works - what do you think?

 

[hank_rearden]

^
cans are opened using s1s2. that's where i got the nicks.

 

[james terrio]

I worked many years in the printing/paper-converting industry. Among other things we die-cut, "chopped" and slit various substrates at fairly high speeds. The paper or cardboard or film or whatever rides between a hardened steel die/slitter/blade... and a hardened steel anvil roller. The edges are either in constant contact (slitter) or impact many, many times per minute (die or cut-off blade).

There's nothing special about any of this; millions of labels and cereal boxes and all kinds of other stuff are run that way, every single day in factories all over the world.

The number one cause of dulling these tools - by far - is too much pressure. Operated properly, they can cut many thousands of feet and/or make many thousands of impressions between re-sharps. I assure you, the guy running the machine that slits/chops off that stack of printer paper next to you is not stopping every few thousand feet (or even every hour) to hone or swap out his blades... he'd be out of a job.

In cutting on ceramic/stoneware, the only portion of the edge that makes contact with the plate is the apex of the 'belly' of the clip blade's profile... Razor edges don't need much pressure to cut, so I use them accordingly, and the 'damage' is minimal as a result.

Hear, hear! :thumbup: I use plain edges on ceramic/metal plates every single day, and have no problems with increased dulling. All it requires is a light touch.

Unfortunately, very few people understand this, and will continue to saw/tear at their food or whatever. So serrations aren't going away. I do like the scallop idea, but have not tried it myself.

Would this works - what do you think?

Probably, but it would be costly to manufacture, a pain to maintain (although you wouldn't have to sharpen it very often) and anyone educated enough to use it properly wouldn't really need it

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

To avoid ding/chip when open can or cut thin metal sheets, before perform such hard uses - you should dull the apex radius/width anywhere between 50 to 200 microns depend on blade steel & ht.

^
cans are opened using s1s2. that's where i got the nicks.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Mechanized industrial processes are mesmerizing to watch. Are the slitter and anvil roller synched/well-calibrated, so the slitter doesn't bang/chop onto the anvil? I envision, it's a rolling pinch cut where the slitter is perpendicular/normal to the anvil. while people/human beside normal forces they will impart destructive forces - lateral + twist, hence degrade the edge more quickly.

I worked many years in the printing/paper-converting industry. Among other things we die-cut, "chopped" and slit various substrates at fairly high speeds. The paper or cardboard or film or whatever rides between a hardened steel die/slitter/blade... and a hardened steel anvil roller. The edges are either in constant contact (slitter) or impact many, many times per minute (die or cut-off blade).

There's nothing special about any of this; millions of labels and cereal boxes and all kinds of other stuff are run that way, every single day in factories all over the world.

3 agrees :thumbup:

The number one cause of dulling these tools - by far - is too much pressure. ...

Hear, hear! :thumbup: I use plain edges on ceramic/metal plates every single day, and have no problems with increased dulling. All it requires is a light touch.

Unfortunately, very few people understand this, and will continue to saw/tear at their food or whatever. So serrations aren't going away. I do like the scallop idea, but have not tried it myself.

1.Yeah probably will add a buck or 2 to manufacture automation. 2. It definitely need slightly more sharpening skills to preserve the edge profile. With 1 & 2 taken care for (by someone else), does this knife more accommodating for untrained users?

Probably, but it would be costly to manufacture, a pain to maintain (although you wouldn't have to sharpen it very often) and anyone educated enough to use it properly wouldn't really need it