Plane Blades

MBB

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Apr 18, 2014
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Just curious, has anyone tried making hand plane blades in some of the more exotic steels? They're routinely made in O1 and A2 (and now PM-V11, whatever that is), but I was wondering if anyone had tried 3V, 4V, Cru-wear, or other more wear resistant steels in this setting? It seems like it would be an interesting project, although possible with the requirement for a surface grinder.

Thanks,

Mike
 
Never done one but because it is a push cut and not a slicing cut, I’d use steels with high hardness and small carbides. O1 and A2 are good choices.

I would try AEB-L, 52100, W2, uhc125, and maybe O2 or 1095. Keenness is most important here. I think pm steels would be okay but not optimum. I would avoid steels with large carbides like D2, 154cm, 440C, cru-wear and the like.

Hoss
 
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Thanks for the response, Hoss.

Depending on the plane, it may be either a push or slice (skew planes). One of the issues with planes is that it is a continuous cut in an abrasive material (wood), and as such, my question is whether some of the newer steels would have better edge retention than classical O1/A2. Another factor in the question is toughness/shock resistance, as the material is not uniform (changing grain, knots, etc.). In use, most plane blades are kept around HRC 60 to balance these competing needs.

Keenness is a factor, and although most of these blades are sharpened at 30-35 degrees (standard pitch), they range from 25 degrees (low angle) all the way to 55-60 degrees (high angle/York pitch) depending on their use. As such, even the low angle planes (25 degrees) are at a much higher angle than most knives. How much that translates to edge keenness with chunkier carbides I do not know.
 
Very interesting, do you already make planes or are you planning on making them?

I looked at skew planes and I think they are still push cutting. Slice cutting would be more like a saw cut.

Ultra sharp edges are taken down to ~.4 of a micron in diameter. 52100 has the smallest carbides that I know of at ~.2-.4 microns, pm steels have carbides at around 4 microns and larger, conventional cast wrought grades are 20 microns and larger, some up around 50 microns.

John Verhoeven looked at the edges of knives and I think planes and found carbide pullout to be a potential problem.

Not sure how any of this affects plane blades, keep me updated on what you learn.

Hoss
 
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Used them, collected them, made them, will probably make more at some point. It's pretty much a cult amongst hand tool woodworkers.

Interesting. I will definitely consider trying a 52100 plane blade and maybe do a comparison with a few other steels.

Thanks for replying!
 
I’ve thought about this, and have considered trying z-wear for some of the exotic hardwoods that are tough on standard blades.
 
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Exactly my thoughts. At 50 degrees (York pitch), I am not sure if carbide pullout will matter as much but abrasive resistance might.
 
For high wear pm steels I like vandis 8 and k390, for medium high wear resistance pm I like pd1/z-wear.

Hoss
 
I've made quite a few planes and plane blades many years ago and A-2 is a great steel for plane blades, and still one of the best. The wooden smoothing planes in photo I made about 20 years ago and I used A-2 at 3/16" thick and had them heat treated with a cryo to HRc-61. My best performing edges were hollow ground at 25 degrees to zero then hand honed on a surgical black Arkansas then stropped on a paddle strop loaded with green chrome rouge. The chip breaker or back iron is also one of the most important features as well for eliminating tear out. IIRC the Japanese are or were using Hitachi super blue in there blades and running the HRc at about 63-64. Anyhow, once the boards I was planing were flat the wooden planes in the photo would cut a fine shaving the entire length of the board. Oh and one other thing rubbing a little paraffin wax on the soul really makes them glide nice. But yes, what Devin said about keenness, and steels that don't have large carbides is critical to plane performance. IMG_3641.png
 
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Used them, collected them, made them, will probably make more at some point. It's pretty much a cult amongst hand tool woodworkers.

Interesting. I will definitely consider trying a 52100 plane blade and maybe do a comparison with a few other steels.

Thanks for replying!

I think that 1.2519 /aisi O7/ ? is excellent for that .....some call that steel 52100 on steroids .... ..
Well , nevermind ..........now I read that it is already mentioned .........Hitachi super blue is the same steel ...I think .
 
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I've made quite a few planes and plane blades many years ago and A-2 is a great steel for plane blades, and still one of the best. The wooden smoothing planes in photo I made about 20 years ago and I used A-2 at 3/16" thick and had them heat treated with a a cryogenic to HRc-61. My best performing edges were hollow ground at 25 degrees to zero then hand honed on a surgical black Arkansas then stropped on a paddle strop loaded with green chrome rouge. The chip breaker or back iron is also one of the most important features as well for eliminating tear out. IIRC the Japanese are or were using Hitachi super blue in there blades and running the HRc at about 63-64. Anyhow once the boards I were planing a flat the wooden planes in the photo would cut a fine shaving the entire length of the board. Oh and one other thing rubbing a little paraffin wax on the soul really make them glide nice. But yes what Devin said about keenness, and steels that don't have large carbides is critical to plane performance. View attachment 839528

Damn, that is some beautiful workmanship. I am very impressed.

Don't get me wrong, I love O1 and A3. It'd still be fun to do a blade comparison with a variety of steels at a variety of hardnesses to see if there could be a performance gain, though.
 
Damn, that is some beautiful workmanship. I am very impressed.

Don't get me wrong, I love O1 and A3. It'd still be fun to do a blade comparison with a variety of steels at a variety of hardnesses to see if there could be a performance gain, though.

I had thought about the super steels for plane blades also, maybe cpm3v. But I don't make planes anymore my focus is on knives, when I retire maybe I'll find time for making more planes.
 
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I've made plane blades from W1, O1, blue#2 and cru forge V. All welded on bits in the Japanese plane iron style. Except I made some scrub plane irons in 3/16" O1 at around 63rc. Ive been wanting to try 3v and a few other in a plane iron for a while
I have a krenov style plane I made(red oak body with a ironwood sole) that has a 3/16"(dosnt need a chip breaker) thick mild steel/O1 iron that cuts really,really well. We make a lot of woodworking tools like carving axes and Adzes.
Scott, those are nice!
 
I've made plane blades from W1, O1, blue#2 and cru forge V. All welded on bits in the Japanese plane iron style. Except I made some scrub plane irons in 3/16" O1 at around 63rc. Ive been wanting to try 3v and a few other in a plane iron for a while
I have a krenov style plane I made(red oak body with a ironwood sole) that has a 3/16"(dosnt need a chip breaker) thick mild steel/O1 iron that cuts really,really well. We make a lot of woodworking tools like carving axes and Adzes.
Scott, those are nice!

Thanks Kentucky, the planes in the photo are patterned off the Krenov style planes the inner workings are the same, I just styled them American style wood planes.
 
I just registered for this forum, as google brought me to this thread when I looked up 52100 plane irons. I'm an amateur woodworker and planemaker who works almost entirely by hand (from rough lumber to finished work). I generally make a vintage english pattern wooden plane (out of solid quartered beech) or infills (with rosewood infills, mostly all steel bottom and sides dovetailed).

https://i.imgur.com/wqwrv0B.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RnBIwC0.jpg

(as I said, amateur - I don't sell tools, but try to make them well enough that I will use them over purchased tools).

At any rate, I've got a fascination with plane irons and have an answer to some of the questions above. Last year, I durability tested to dull a group of plane irons. Part of the reason was to get data on feet planed in total (rather than accelerated tests, or torture tests, which don't match planing wood), and the other part was to get a relative result for V11, which the manufacturer was claiming to wear twice as long as what's typically available (O1 and A2). The answer is mixed - in clean smoothing work, the claim is actually true. But simpler older steels are probably better for work in rough wood and heavier planing as the edge takes damage (fine edge, not what knife people would call a working edge - a working edge is too dull in a plane as the plane won't stay in a cut without someone leaning on it, and if you try that woodworking, you'll be sucking wind in 10 minutes when you planned to work for half a day).

At any rate, in relative edge wear, this is what I found. I made the O1 iron, the A2 iron is Lie Nielsen (they make the best I've seen), the blue steel is tsunesaburo (And was partially defective - the edge looked as if it was letting go of carbides - I took pictures of the edges every 200 feet of planing), the HSS is chinese make (not quite M2, but close), and the 3v and M4 are CPM heat treated by paul bos before he retired (they don't belong to me, but were given to me for the test). The edge for the test was confirmed under a metallurgical scope and sharpened through 1 micron diamond so that no steel would be incompletely sharpened (no carbides/abrasives battling for superiority).

In general, you can multiply these ratios and assume that in most test pieces (maple and american beech), the 01 iron ran about 800 feet. So in relative ratios:
O1 - 1.0
A2 - 1.25 (but the 1.0-1.25 territory was an edge falling apart and one would sharpen as the shavings coming out of the plane didn't stay together - O1 wears more uniformly. LN's A2 is cryo treated - the other irons that are not and made of A2 generally are less uniform yet - I ran A2 irons as a separate test a few years ago and found this)
Blue steel - 1.0 (I think it would've been closer to A2 due to higher hardness had it held together better)
Chinese HSS - 1.65 (this iron was supposed to be 61 hardness, but a versitron averaged a little over 65 on the c scale - it actually doesn't seem to have a negative effect, but hand work on the irons is pretty tough if they don't arrive flat)
3V at 59 hardness - 1.65 (it probably would've gained 15-20% if it had been hardened to 61 as requested - I understand knife folks like 59 for 3v for toughness, but planing is an exercise of abrasion and the extra toughness isn't needed - it actually makes the wire edge a pain to deal with sharpening a plane).
V11 - 2.0
CPM - M4 - 2.05

As to more exotic steels, planing is about two things -wear - and no unexpected failures in an edge (they leave little lines all over the place and then you have to sand those out). All of the above planed well in clean wood, but the blue steel iron did leave a duller surface from the outset as it started letting go of bits right away - uniformly, not catastrophic, but not great).

here's a picture of the edge trouble on blue steel (I don't know if this would be solved by forging - these irons are just made of hitachi prelaminated steel) https://i.imgur.com/dhmKa79.jpg

O1 wear at complete dullness looks like this:
https://i.imgur.com/J2OMH4M.jpg

(notice the edge uniformity - lovely - this counts in woodworking -not just the area of wear, but how clean the line is at the very tip)

3v (V11 and M4 looked similar - the PMs all were fairly uniform and wore long)
https://i.imgur.com/pWTMz7s.jpg

Heavy hand tool users may resharpen a plane four times in a work session, and sometimes just to remove damage to finish a surface. To that end, V11 (which is mostly chromium carbides) is easier to deal with than M4 and 3V and O1 takes about half the time to hone as V11. In an ideal setting where wood is already clean (maybe out of a machine planer) the V11 (which is nearly identical to XHP) is lovely. When the work gets rougher, O1 is a better choice. A2 is more or less obsoleted by XHP/V11.

I planed somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 feet of wood testing irons for these results and ran a few tests several times to confirm relative comparisons. Chromium in V11 makes it really slick through wood. The 3V and M4 had quite a bit more friction at the same sharpness. Is it vanadium carbides grabbing wood? I don't know.

Sorry to lay out so much info on my first post (especially on an old thread).

(by the way, since the O1 iron is my make from good quality us O1, a few people complained that they can't buy it and requested I test a hock iron -a familiar name to people in woodworking. My iron ran about 5% further than the hock iron in a head to head test alternating the irons back and forth in the same board until both were dull, but 5% is probably not outside of the range of error in the test for one take, so about the same. Softer O1 irons, like lee valley sells, will not last as long on a relative basis as these two)

What brings me here is someone asked how long 52100 will last planing, and I should know that in a couple of weeks as I have some 52100 on the way. Fortunately, planing is more about hardness and metal composition than it is perfect microstructure (nobody is prying or hammering, etc).

Long story short, I wouldn't bother with 3V or M4 or anything, and I wouldn't bother with any really high carbide steel that wasn't PM (These were all PMs). The wear is more uniform and the planing more pleasant with the PMs due to uniformity. The reality with both of the 3v and M4 irons is that both were sent to me incompletely sharpened. My cycle time to sharpen O1 is around a minute for a plane iron. 3V is at least two, and then more of the cycle shows edge damage if you hit something unexpected, so it's just not a great tradeoff. People who are less competent sharpening just never completely sharpen all of the damage out of it.

(the pictures above are at 150x optical with a good indian metallurgical scope - which is good compared to a hand held scope. Maybe not good compared to a $20K american scope that includes specialty software to take layered images, but good enough for this test).

this picture shows about 4000 feet of shavings. The postal scale on the desk is to weigh shavings - when I ran the results, I weighted the shavings as well to make sure everything was fair, and the testing for all but one (larger iron - the 3v) was done using the same plane.

https://i.imgur.com/bjgFohA.jpg

I've also found out since starting to make some hobby knives/blades, that setting a knife edge up for rough use is a whole lot different than planing!

(one other side comment - there are a lot of knife tests on youtube, some less controlled or not quantified at all. In terms of finding what's good for a plane blade, a comparison of sharpenability/grindability for a knife and a test of something like cutting clean rope or clean cardboard is good. As soon as a working edge is acceptable (vs. a very fine edge) and the test mediums go to impact or really abrasive stuff (like sandy rope), the results don't transfer well to planing as it's essential that a plane is sharp enough that it will take a shaving under its own weight. Anything less will play the user out in short order and result in ripples on the surface of wood where a plane comes in and out of a cut.
 
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