Please help me do some troubleshooting (pics of finished knife added)

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Laredian

Joined
May 27, 2013
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I am currently working on two hidden tang knives. Blades are finished and I am in the process of fitting the guard. Now I have read most I can find in books and on this forum regarding this topic but I just can't do it. I don't have a mill but that should not hinder me to make a good fit.

Here is what I've tried so far:
I drilled the holes for the tang undersize and marked my slot for the tang on the guard material slightly undersize. I drilled the holes and connected them with my files.
Then I used a carbide faced file guide during the rougher stock removal to establish straight lines.
Then I filed the slot on the side that does not meet the ricasso at an angle so that the area that has to be fit up is reduced (so basically the slot on the side of the guard that does not meet the ricasso is bigger). Then I took a file that had a safe edge ground to file the shoulders of the slot so it closer fit the tang.

I went really slow and took my time, checked often, rescribed my lines often, but I can't seem to do it...I am now at my fourth failed attempt where there are gaps in the final fit up (I'll post pictures as soon as I can).

I would be grateful for any advice.

Edit: also I am pretty sure my tang is flat. I flattened it on a granite surface with sandpaper....but who knows I spent the whole weekend in my shop trying to fit A guard...four times, at this moment I don't really trust myself much.:D
I was using Vallorbe needle files, so I was able to work with quality tools in my opinion.
 
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I feel your pain because the first few attempts that fail can be frustrating!!! I will always have a slight taper from the ricasso to the end of the tang and leave the guard slot a little tight of fitting up to the shoulders say less than an 1/8" and I will drive the guard using a back up piece of steel to protect the back side (handle side) of the guard until its tight. When its as far as it will move forward I will tap the guard off and look for "Witness" marks inside the guard and on the tang to see where it's hitting and hanging up and either remove a little more or if you're lucky it will have seated up to the shoulders....It's no secret that many makers use this same technique since guards rarely fit on the first attempt.

Not sure if you've seen Will Morrison's WIP but he has some good photos and explains his guard fitting and some tips.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/introduction-and-a-wip.1082411/
 
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Laredian said:
I was using Vallorbe needle files, so I was able to work with quality tools in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Excellent needle file . I have them but I don t like them for this kind of work .Too small and they flex to easy . Chain saw file and triangle shape file are much better for me .
 
You may have a flat tang, but is it square AND parallel? Or as I like to call it, squarallel?

Seriously though, fitting guards by hand is tough. I’m sure there are guys that can do it all day long, but there’s a reason I dont do many guards.
 
I can’t bail you out because I’m in the same leaky boat. I have my first 3 hidden tang blades mostly finished and am in the process of fitting gaurds pomels and handles. It sucks. I’m not doing a great job and am intensely fighting the, “screw it it’s good enough”.

I made one guard out of wrought and tossed it across the shop because it was terribley terrible. Another out of copper which I think I’m going to use even though it’s bad and some quarter mokume that isn’t much better than anything else but I’m still fighting it.
 
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Its not hard, just awfully fiddely getting everything tight. Layout dye or just marker pen can help when fitting. Apply dye, fit & wiggle will reveal high spots to take down.
I usually make guards of bone or horn, Its a bit easier.
Nowdays if I make them of metal, I made a swaging die so they can be slightly oversize, then press them to fit. This requires guard thickness match the die.
Of course tang needs to be smooth & tapered or it cant be removed after swaging to finish its outer surfaces.
 
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How many shoulders are you working with? I’ve played a couple times with getting guards or ferrules to fit up on hidden tangs, and I have no fancy equipment. I’ve mostly done non metal (g10, micarta, wood) because it was simpler to play with, so peening wasn’t an option. What I did that worked out in the end was give myself four shoulders to work with. That way the slot didn’t have to be perfect to the tang to avoid gaps. The shoulders all around the tang just had to be matching, which seemed easier to me to dial in with a file than trying to get the slot exactly as wide as it needed to be. A proper file guide would probably make it even easier, I used the jaws of my vise as a file guide...
 
Peening is the answer as kuraki suggests. File as close as you can until the guard is 1/4"- 3/8" from seating, depending upon the taper and shape of your tang. Then using careful observation and a sharpie note where you need to remove more material or close up gaps. If there is a gap, lightly peen the face of the guard along that stretch and re-seat the guard. Repeat until all gaps are gone. When all gaps are gone, refinish the face of the guard. For the thickness side a good tool to have is a set of radius gauges. When the guard is seated you cannot see what the actual fit looks like between the shoulders of the ricasso/tang and the inner surface of the guard. Use the radius gauges to determine what the actual radius is of both parts to see if they match. That radius can be a tricky place to get right. Sometimes you are so very close but you just can't seem to get that last tiny gap to go away (on the short dimension sides). Often it is that the transition of the radius doesn't blend properly onto the face of the guard.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlLys26grS-/?taken-by=aldrich_knife
 
Ok wow, thank you so much for the many responses.

So a couple of things that I did not mention that were adressed:
I did taper the tang so that just behind the rixasso is the thickest part of the tang to ease fit up.
The Vallorbe needle files flex yes and it is a bit annoying, but the knife is small and my tang is also quite small so they were the only files I had that fit in the slot, but I really tried to pay close attention to not create a high spot somewhere inside the slot.
Oh and my tang is most certainly not flat AND parallel...or sqarallel (btw I'm stealing that expression because it's awsome). On a side note, can that even be achieved without a surface grinder?

@Liebland: I must admit I do not know what exactly a swaging die is and how you would use it in this context, sorry. Can you elaborate?

I will definitely try the peening method thank you very much for suggesting that! I am going to post pictures later so you can see what the issue looks like.
 
Laredian said:
Oh and my tang is most certainly not flat AND parallel...or sqarallel (btw I'm stealing that expression because it's awsome). On a side note, can that even be achieved without a surface grinder?
Click to expand...
This can be done on a granite surface block(can find a granite sink cut out usually from kitchen counter top builders FREE) or something as simple as a piece of Glass. Just tape sand paper down and use water or WD-40 as wetting agent to manually sand flatten the surface. It's best to have the Ricasso dead flat at the beginning of the build to use as your reference point for all other associated measurements.
 
But it won't be parallel without some manual intervention and measuring. Get one side flat, flip, flatten other side. Now mic thickness at each shoulder, and across the entire tang. If you have a nice straight line going from thickness(a) at one shoulder to thickness(A+) at the other shoulder, you can blue the blade and attempt to use pressure to bring that tall side down. But this is tough to do.

The nice part about peening is you're forming the slot to whatever form the tang has, and it helpfully does it for you by driving the guard into place. The down side is it's not an option with composites.
 
Yep, peening works like a champ. When I was first doing it I thought I was cheating...... until I found it was more common than I expected.
 
But , it is cheating ....... :) isn't all about hand made knife in skills/craftsmanship of knife maker ? Personally I will never want to buy knife with peened gard
 
Liebland: I must admit I do not know what exactly a swaging die is and how you would use it in this context, sorry. Can you elaborate
Click to expand...
Swaging is process of squashing a metal piece around something else.
In this case the guard piece is fitted all the way forward. Its slightly oversize because thats quick & easy. Then its squashed onto the tang by pressing 360° so it fits tight to the tang.
This requires the blank piece and die to be pretty much matched to each other. In my case, I only made one die so all metal guards I make have to start out the same size square then shape as desired after swaging.
In my case of homebrew tooling, guards need to be soft nonferrous material.
 
Here are the pictures:

qJP20H.jpg


qRep5t.jpg


Busto said:
This can be done on a granite surface block(can find a granite sink cut out usually from kitchen counter top builders FREE) or something as simple as a piece of Glass. Just tape sand paper down and use water or WD-40 as wetting agent to manually sand flatten the surface. It's best to have the Ricasso dead flat at the beginning of the build to use as your reference point for all other associated measurements.
Click to expand...

This is what i did to flatten it, but how would you know if it is really parallel?
 
One thing I see regularly when newer makers are trying to fit a guard snug is that the tang is still the original bar stock surface and thickness. After the blade and ricasso have been ground and sanded, the area at the shoulders is thinner than the tang. You need to carry the rcasso sanding at least 1' up the tang, and the tang needs to be tapered slightly to within 1/2" of the shoulders. I like the end of the tang to be about half of the ricasso thickness.
A cheap digital micrometer from HF will allow you find any high spots that need more grinding on the tang, and to check that the ricasso is flat.
If the ricasso is tapered spine to edge, then make sure the tang is equally angled and that the guard has a matching slot.
When the tang is ready to fit the guard, it should be smaller in all dimensions than the ricasso past the first 1/2" .
These things will solve 99% of guard fitting issues.

When puting the angle on the slot from the back in filing/fitting, only file the angle half way down the slot sides. You then file the slot to fit more, and if needed, file the back side angle again. When the guard slot is finally done and fits snug, there should be nothing left of this angle beyond a small chamfer on the back side.
 
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