Poncho w/ liner opinions for Winter

E

Eyegor

Joined
Feb 22, 2006
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As most of us do, I'm constantly re-considering what I pack and why. I've recently been going through my SAR pack and am now pondering winter bivy options.

Weight is critical on our SAR missions. I aim to travel light and as rapid as the mission allows. Weight is critical for my personal gear because I am tasked with carrying a complete BLS EMT kit plus we will often be carrying survivors/patients back out. In addition I try to accomplish this while still meeting NASAR SARTECH requirements as closely as possible.

My current shelter equip: several industrial strength garbage bags, Space emergency blanket (the tarp-esque one with the grommets, not the mylar only ones), and a poncho. These along with appropiate clothing provide enough to last an overnight out on an extended mission or to shelter in place with a patient until back-up arrives. I've decided that in addition to changing clothing (obvious) I need to add at least another layer of shelter to my set up for winter use. I'm currently considering a poncho liner. When actually used inside the poncho it should make a snug sit shelter (with the option of a heat source inside) or as an insulating layer for between the patient and the ground.

I really like the versatility of the poncho liner and may make it a permenant addition. But if the consensus is that it won't suffice for winter use I'll most likely carry a CC foam pad instead. Maybe lighter but much bulkier. IMO.

One thing to remember: When offering your suggestions the poncho w/liner is not being used as a winter camping bag but merely a "make it through to morning" substitute. When I'm actually camping this time of year, my Army winter bag with canvas cover is my choice. Let the ideas begin.
 
I have a bunch of (U.S.) army-surplus ponchos and liners. While I love the ponchos, and am glad to have the liners as something to provide just a bit of insulation (and, maybe more importantly, to provide a layer that will keep the condensing water vapor from getting me too wet inside a poncho), I've got to say that I'm skeptical about how useful the liner would be as insulation where insulation is really needed.

A couple of years ago, my young sons and I camped out in my parents' backyard. In the spring, I think. In Phoenix, Arizona. Having not yet bought serious sleeping bags for my boys, I put them (and myself) in liner-lined ponchos, snapped so as to take on the sleeping-bag configuration. Now, desert nights can get surprisingly cool, but I have to say we were all unpleasantly surprised at how little insulation the liner-and-poncho sleeping bag provided.

So: I'd say the poncho liners are better than nothing--but maybe not by much. You might do better with a fleece blanket of the appropriate size; worth investigating, anyway.

Good luck--and thanks for your service on your SAR team.
 
I have used poncho liners for some years (8) and enjoy their versitility. I have never worked in SAR, but in the Army I was a scout and I can see our mission weight being very similiar in addition to our search for lightness. I can tell you I spent a many of night huddled under one freezing my ass off. Generally when jumping with a full mission ruck I carried a poncho, liner, pus pad (Cut down) and super light sleeping bag. This load was universal down to about 25deg F (also miserable). Where I would have to add a hevier bag and more snivel. Not being active anymore I still carry one with me all the time because I'm so used to them. I have switched to a Kifaru liner though and it is MUCH warmer than the GI counterpart, although more difficult to rig to a poncho and slightly smaller.

To me weight is all about how miserable you can take. 'Pack light freeze at night' was a universal saying among us. Honestly discounting it's versitility and just talking about weight vs effeciency I would rather put that 19 oz in a bag and a pus pad with Bivy.

Just my .02
 
Eygor,

Doing SAR myself I understand 100% your issues.

What I and many others on my team do for winter is: We get a larger pack for bulk. We strap a CC foam pad to the outside or inside if you can fit it. I like the z-rest as its less bulky. then we will pack a lightweight summer weight sleeping bag and then top it off with 2 adventure medical heatsheet bivi's both inside and outside the bag.

We carry tarps for quick shelters. The bag setup will bring the bags rating down dramatically, a little sweaty but warm enough. Winter is not a time to skimp on gear as it could be my a ss or the lost subjects if i do.

All other setups tried is too much of a compromize. I also carry a full WEMT BLS kit so weight savings is key.

Skam
 
I am here in Afghanistan, the nights are in the teens now. I ditched the issue type poncho liner and replaced it with the Kifaru woobie. It is by far better than the issue liner. Well worth the price. I can tell you that this is an AWESOME liner.

link: http://www.kifaru.net/MGhome.htm
 
I carry a surplus ponch and a Brigade QM thinsulate poncho liner in my BOB. A winter bag would make it too heavy. The liner is enough to keep me warm in my car, in an abandoned building or in a snow cave with a fire. I figure if I have to hoof it off the road I will find someone to take me in or a barn to hold up in if the going gets tough. In my truck for the winter I carry a couple of "army blankets", a heavy poncho, and a space blanket. I could always pack them out.
 
I would think a layer that zips shut (or a pull over) would trap heat better than the liner.

As ground insulation, it should be near worthless as your weight will crush the air (insulation) out of it (as with sleeping bags generally). Closed cell foam would be much better - even an 18" square that you could sit on. Or maybe a shortie Ridgerest or TrailRest. Fleece resists crushing some (hence good under pack straps).

The current ECWCS Gen III uses a "loft layer" ("Layer VII") - a polyester fill ("PrimaLoft"), water-repellant insulated overcoat and over pants.
The Level VII jacket features a two-way center-front zipper opening with a protective wind flap, nylon reinforced elbows, two front zipper pockets, a rip stop nylon inner lining and an elastic cord in the bottom hem for adjustability. It is also constructed with a collar containing a collapsible insulated hood with drawstring that stows easily inside the collar. In addition, there are Velcro fasteners to attach rank badges and name plates as well as elastic cuffs with Velcro adjustment straps. The trousers feature a zippered fly opening, an elastic waist with provisions for suspenders, nylon reinforced knees and full-length side-zipper openings to facilitate donning without removal of boots or shoes. All zippers have a thong for ease of opening and closing when wearing gloves
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I always carry a poncho and a CC pad (cut down). The poncho is an instant tent/shelter, but you need something underneath you for insulation as well. If I had one without the other...I would consider my gear to be incomplete.

As for a poncho liner, I would rather just have a warm jacket and pants, but I can see how a liner might be handy if dealing with a patient or in a rescue situation.
 
And taking all of your advice and comments into account I have decided on the following course of action, at least for now.:rolleyes:

I've decided that a CC foam pad is a must for winter ops and I will add mine to my SAR pack. I'm also going to add either a fleece blanket or poncho liner when I get a chance (after the holidays). I plan on doing an overnight in the yard to see how it goes. Further modifications may happen after that. Hopefully we won't receive a SAR call-out before my personal testing is complete.

Braddy; Reflexcell seems like an interesting technology that I was not familiar with. It definitely is worth looking at. Thank You for recommending it. Do you have any personal experience with this item?

Please keep the suggestions, ideas, and observations coming.
 
Eyegor said:
...Braddy; Reflexcell seems like an interesting technology that I was not familiar with. It definitely is worth looking at. Thank You for recommending it. Do you have any personal experience with this item?

Please keep the suggestions, ideas, and observations coming.
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Keep in mind that any time you put yourself in a totally waterproof bag, you will get wet. That is the only drawback I see to this item (Vast improvement over simple mylar bags though).

Codger
 
I have a Fleece sleeping bag which is surprisingly warm and because it zips closed keeps in heat fairly well, I usually wrap this with a poncho or nylon tarp to make it warmer and wind resistance as by itself a strong breeze cuts through like an icy knife. I have a bivi I may try it with this winter.

I also wonder if anyone has tried the thinsulate poncho liners vs the military polyester ?
 
Good point about insulating a victim. They might not be in shape to wrestle a fitted garment on them. Ground insulation would be very important for them - for shock if not hypothermia.

The best use I have gotten out of mylar-faced "blankets" is using them to create man-sized reflector ovens. You really get a lot of effect when the victim is between a good fire and a "survival blanket" rigged behind him to focus the radiation on his back. A "blanket" with eyelets would be easier to rig in such a fashion.

(Too bad those "casualty blankets" are OD on the reverse. They are good otherwise.)
 
All bags performed well and none was damaged during use. Users generally felt the warmth provided was equivalent to that of a two to three season sleeping bag.
Sometimes a small amount of condensation formed in the bags after a number of hours use, but in no case was this felt to be a serious problem.
Some bags have been used a number of times with no discernible reduction in performance, even after having been roughly re-packed.
Do you have any personal experience with this item?
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I only learned about it recently, but I am extremely curious, I would like to learn if it is as good as it sounds, also that mention of hand warmers? I would like to hear if they help as much as I think they do, I have tossed one in a cheap bag and loved the effect.

If you may not survive the night and you place a hand warmer on your (kidneys)? , or wherever, does that give you a better chance?
 
braddy said:
I would like to learn if it is as good as it sounds, also that mention of hand warmers? I would like to hear if they help as much as I think they do, I have tossed one in a cheap bag and loved the effect.
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Hand warmers are surprizingly warm. They do make a diference on SAR ops I sue them all the time. I slept out last weekend during training at 4 below zero with wind chill and they helped a lot. I carry a minimum of 8 on winter SAR missions.

I take my layered system I mentioned above (incidentally similar in concept to the bag you mentioned) and wore a winter hat new dry socks and poly pro inside the bags. A z-rest was under me as the ground is frozen solid.

I then took 4 handwarmers and placed 2 in my gloves I wore in the bag, and placed 2 on top of my feet in my socks.

I slept for 4 hrs from 2 am to 6 am. Not bad for below zero in a thin summer mummy bag sandwiched between the new poly/mylar bags without a shelter.

I barely noticed the condensation at all and there was quite a bit.

Vapour barrier science is neat stuff look it up.


Skam
 
when hunting late season in wyoming i have slept out in sub zero temps, i did try a vapor barrier bag and then my sleeping bag, i wore my poly pro mil weight as my sleeping clothing. i was comfortable all night, i used a peak one bag rated at -30.
\
alex
 
Codger_64 said:
Keep in mind that any time you put yourself in a totally waterproof bag, you will get wet. That is the only drawback I see to this item (Vast improvement over simple mylar bags though).

Codger
Click to expand...

skammer said:
I barely noticed the condensation at all and there was quite a bit.

Vapour barrier science is neat stuff look it up.

Skam
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This is my primary concern regarding any of the mylar type products. If you get wet, you get cold. If you get wet and cold, you die. My experience with this is limited to boy scouts wrapping their 3-season bags with emergency blankets for winter camp-outs. Invariably, they or their bags wound up wet from perspiration and/or condensation. This always facilitated a trip to the lodge to warm up and dry out. Not a good option IMO.

OT: Not a SAR Op but we wound up "tobogganing" a potential cardiac patient out of their residence using our Stokes litter this weekend. Approx. 1/4 mile from patient's house to nearest vehicle access point. Worked like a charm.
 
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