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Discussion in 'Survive! Knives' started by Ramojung, Sep 1, 2017.

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  1. scout1sg

    scout1sg

    926
    Nov 9, 2009
    I'm considering taking two weeks of vacation (or for that matter two weeks no paid vacation) and travel up to Idaho to help him in any capacity I can to further the process and potentially receive one of the 4 I have on order. He won't even have to pay me to do it (lol)
     
    Apocryphiliac likes this.
  2. mumblings

    mumblings

    14
    Sep 14, 2017
    Long time lurker, first time poster here. I signed up specifically to express my views about the nature of the conversation that's occuring here on this subforum regarding Survive's business practice.

    I've already received two knives from Survive! and am waiting on a presale 7/7, F2nd 2.7 and I have also paid a deposit on an SK6 so I'm invested in what happens to Survive.

    It's frustrating to read people speak so emphatically about what is ultimately speculation, regardless of whether there is some reasonable grounds for that speculation. It's still a leap in thinking beyond what the facts tell us we can say with certainty though. Speculation should be expressed tentatively especially in these circumstances with lots at risk. I'm not saying that heads should be buried in the sand. Survive! is definitely open to some serious criticism. I am saying though that people should be careful, especially if they aren't invested themselves, in contributing to circumstances that they assume are already occuring but might only end up occuring because of what they say and how they say it. We have to remember what is most important here and that is people not losing out completely, which is far worse than having to endure the working dysfunction of Survive!. You may perceive that something inappropriate is happening, which might make you understandably upset but please respect the outcomes for others that may well follow from your actions when they go beyond what is helpful or contributory. Constructive criticism can be respectful, collected and rationally respect the limits of what can actually reasonally be said and in what way. Emotive or negative criticism can begin as or look like constructive criticism but it ends communicating unhelpful emotions and doesn't respect the limits of what can reasonably be said based on what's knowable at that time. The former promotes a healthy exploration of what's happening but the latter just presses on people's emotions and promotes irrationality, something which I've found myself getting caught up in from time to time on here.

    Additionally, I want to say that I think that trying to get your money back at this point, especially out of fear, could cause you and others to lose out on both knives and money depending on where Survive! is at. The best thing we can do for ourselves and each other, with the knowledge that the refund requests are damaging Survive's functioning is not pursue them and accept the waits and risks as they stand because we appreciate the alternative as more risky with obviously much worse consequences. Asking for a refund for yourself at this point may undermine Survive's ability to get knives out to the next people. I'm not saying these circumstances are right or fair but they are where we find ourselves at present and we just have to deal with it in the best possible way. To put it another way, if a significant exodus occurs due to fear it might take 10% of all knife refunds to cause 90% of all other knife payments to be lost. Those are random numbers I've made up but there must be a threshold where a certain amount of refunds - presumably less than more - cause everyone else still invested to lose out. If you were one of those 10% it could even stop you getting your refund if it totally impedes the cash flow before they get to you.

    Survive! have made some serious errors and that isn't open to debate unless you're in denial but what is open to debate is how we proceed as a group at this juncture in order to ensure our financial investments individualy and collectively are protected. It isn't nor should it be your responsibility to compensate for Survive's mistakes but the fact is that we're in a situation where treading carefully in what we say, whilst still being honest, and the decisions we make about our money may have significant meaning for other people in the same situation from the same community.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  3. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    Sorry but this is just silly. If you are able to try and get your money back from survive do it right now. Your money went to make knives for the people who paid before you. The money to make your knife is being solicited now. This is not how a business worth supporting runs. Get out now.
     
  4. Joecleo86

    Joecleo86 Basic Member Basic Member

    250
    Jun 1, 2017
    How far is this gonna go before someone from sk actually speaks up? Lancelot spoke with guy today but he cant spare a few mintues to talk with us or at least drop a post. Im waiting on knives myself and i have a few friends who are as well based off my recommendation. What do i say to them?
     
  5. dragfree

    dragfree

    37
    Sep 6, 2015
    Without corroborating evidence this appears to be nothing more than conjecture masquerading as statements of fact -- at best!

    All the evidence, from the time Survive! launched their starter sales more than two years ago, suggests that early orders funded development of Survive!'s expanding production capacity to meet even more expanding demand. In the internet age, many successful businesses have started with this funding model, appealing directly to prospective customers instead of borrowing from banks or other lenders.

    When did Tesla start taking money from prospective customers for the Model 3? Oh, yeah ... early 2016, at $35,000 a pop. Projected release date for the finished product keeps slipping. Now they say sometime in 2018.
     
  6. ncrockclimb

    ncrockclimb

    Nov 20, 2014
    S!K has stated publicly that they need the money from current orders fund current operations. (Someone else can find the quote from Guy or Ellie.) If Lance is to be believed, S!K has spent ALL THE MONEY FROM SALES and are in such bad shape financially that they had to get a loan (and then were unable to pay that back in the agreed upon time). Again, according to Lance, this is the reason that they cannot issue refunds for grossly past due orders.

    I get that you like S!K, but it is almost 99% certain that they are in a dire financial position of their own making. If you have evidence to the contrary, please speak up.

    Edit to add - I have no reason to suspect that Lance is anything other than who he claims to be. However, barring Guy or Ellie confirming his relationship to the company, I feel compelled to point out that Lance could be full of BS... but I don't think this is the case.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    sharp thoughts and winger51 like this.
  7. Pàdruig

    Pàdruig Live and Let Die Platinum Member

    Dec 1, 2016
    I have debated somewhat long and hard on whether or not I wanted to chime in here or not. In the end, I opted to do so, if only to provide some perspective from a would-be or potential customer of Survive! If I am stepping on any toes or if some of you feel I am butting in where I am not wanted, I sincerely apologize. However, I feel it prudent to lend some thoughts from someone who has been interested in the company's knives for awhile but has been given plenty of reasons to pause before making any leaps...

    I first became aware of Survive! knives some time shortly before joining the forums here. What I saw was fantastic! I loved the shape of the knives, the clean simple lines, the versatile designs, and the great steel. It encompasses a lot of what I value in a good stout fixed blade knife. I explored their website a bit, not finding anything that really displeased me. As a result, I decided that I wanted to put their knives on my short list of desired acquisitions. I cannot recall exactly why, but I do seem to remember them not having anything for sale at the time I initially perused their site. I do remember it not concerning me too much and I carried on with business as usual.

    Fast forward a little bit to shortly after I joined Bladeforums, I was doing a lot of reading, a lot of exploring, finding places where I might fit in and such, and discovered that Survive! had their own little sub-forum. It didn't take me long to start seeing whispers here and there of discontent and I started to see that not all was quite right. My desire to purchase a knife from this company drifted a few notches down the list in a sense. I continued to explore the forums and I certainly found a couple of places that I am quite proud to call second homes, all seemed right in the world and I didn't venture out too often beyond the scope of the subs I tend to frequent here.

    I still would go out exploring, especially when my other subs were a bit slow and this sub-forum is always on my list of stops. Being that I have still been interested in this company's knives and also that I have not had the pleasure to handle one yet, this sub serves as a main source of research and information for my curiosity regarding their products. However, each visit always gives me further pause, and Survive! knives drifts further and further down on my list. Without engaging in speculation or casting aspersions on folks that I do not know, there is still enough information here to give any potential customer, such as myself, significant pause before considering paying out any money to this company.

    Each visit here has only brought to light more and more strife, numerous questions, burgeoning uncertainty, and none of it casts an all too favorable light on the company itself. Coming from someone who has no "skin in the game", I am out neither money, assets, or time really, this whole debacle just stinks really and it certainly does not motivate me to want to support this company with dollars until I, as a potential customer, can be assured that said money will produce the desired product in a reasonable amount of time.

    So the bottom line is: Folks like myself have every reason to give this company a very wide berth. At least until they can get themselves sorted and on a good track that not only facilitates success for themselves but for their customers as well. I really hope they do come out on top, and I really do hope they do right by those they have wronged here. But in the meantime, I will be on the sidelines, hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. Perhaps I will find something on the secondary market, but I can honestly say I probably won't be all that excited about it....
     
  8. braillediver

    braillediver Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Survive! knives is currently an acknowledged Ponzi Scheme. To think otherwise is crazy.

    Read what Lance wrote- "the company is now "asset rich and cash poor."= The only way they can continue operation is to sell more knives which they can't produce on time. Think about that for a moment- They're building and shipping knives that don't generate revenue. That revenue was spent over a year ago.

    If survive! knives didn't take another order, did not receive another payment- They'd have to manufacture and ship knives on their dime until the backlog was finished. That could be years.

    De-nile isn't just a river in Africa.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  9. gonebad395

    gonebad395 Ironworker!

    May 19, 2015
    /
     
  10. Thomas Linton

    Thomas Linton

    Jun 16, 2003
    Is this the case? They need not only patience from those who have already paid but also more people to pay in advance? If so, the ones at the end stand to get stuck unless there is some substantial change in the business model.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    moshow9 likes this.
  11. argyle1812

    argyle1812 Gold Member Gold Member

    522
    Mar 6, 2016
    Well im 3 months past filing a paypal dispute on my 3 orders from Survive. At this point for myself and the many others out there in the same boat I hope that Survive can make things right.
     
  12. The cow

    The cow

    646
    Jul 3, 2014
    Unfortunately, it is a process with them. It took me about 2 months before I got my refund. They are slow to respond, more you pester them, the longer it'll take.

    Actually, it is going on years. They promised a pre-orders with a couple months after the pre-orders. But I quickly saw my pre-order get pushed further and further back. Unfortunately, they are continuing to take orders, occasionally newer orders will get pushed in front of existing.

    Unfortunately, their "we'll ship it eventually" business model doesn't sit well with many people. Ultimately, you have two options if you want their knives-pay the scalpers price or wait.
     
  13. Insipid Moniker

    Insipid Moniker Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    I hope everyone is made whole and that Survive can come back with a healthier business plan and better management, but if they are, indeed, struggling financially to keep up with refund requests, I don't think asking people to refrain from those requests is either realistic or in any way reasonable.
     
    shinyedges likes this.
  14. Karoi

    Karoi Unobtanium Member Gold Member

    843
    Sep 7, 2014
  15. mumblings

    mumblings

    14
    Sep 14, 2017
    Although I think there are better ways of considering this situation there's definitely no absolutely right answer at this stage, with every option carrying a different kind of risk because nobody knows exactly what position Survive! are in and what that position means for their future. Certain positions of financial difficulty still retain maneuvering space and others do not. With the apparent evidence we do have for Survive's situation we can easily argue that lots of panic money withdrawals would certainly do great harm and potentially move them from having some maneuvering space to having none, which would unarguably be a real tragedy. There is less certainty over the risks of keeping our money where it is unless you're right up against the edge of a Paypal of credit card protection window, which would obviously be a factor in how you understand your situation.

    The potential collective benefit of patience at this point in time might not mean something to everyone but it might mean something to enough and is definitely worth pointing out as a reason to stay invested, especially as a counterbalance to what I perceive as others confusing speculation with knowing and emotion with reason, which suggests the only choice is an immediate and dramatic one. I believe there are good reasons for holding course for the time being and possibly for the future as well but those reasons may lose their force depending on what additional evidence comes forward. Although everything may still work out, we might hear the sort of news that we'd prefer not to and that may require taking whatever measures are necessary to rescue your cash because no other course of action means anything by that point.

    In other words, there are good reasons for suggesting a holding of course for now, which may even follow into the future but there's still room for things not working out, which would require a change of course. This isn't about blindly following Survive! as they drive off of a cliff if that's what happens but nor is about sounding the fire alarm before it's needed and then proceeding to trample over each other for the exits when all that was required was the calm and collected use of an extinguisher.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    Brian77, CataD, Apocryphiliac and 2 others like this.
  16. braillediver

    braillediver Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Hear that sound- It's the Fire Alarm. Get out while you can.
     
  17. Thomas Linton

    Thomas Linton

    Jun 16, 2003
    Again, and correct me if I misunderstand, but patience by past buyers is not enough. What is needed is for others to continue to pay in advance for other knives, hoping to receive them some day, so that there is money to make knives for those who already paid months and years ago. Today's income is for yesterday's orders. Yesterday's income is already gone. How long that can go on or how the pattern can be changed are the questions.
     
  18. craytab

    craytab Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 26, 2012
    I believe that is the situation. Many of us here from the beginning saw this as a problem years ago. For some reason, despite all the evidence and history, some do not see this situation the same way. See above.
     
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  19. mumblings

    mumblings

    14
    Sep 14, 2017
    Is it possible that factors such as insurance from the fire and profit from outsourcing of the SK range could make a difference? Could funding the SK production have also taken money away from GSO production but with the plan that, in the long-term, it would actually help it? Especially as the SK range should be made much more quickly between a reduced standard and most of the timely work becoming somebody else's responsiblilty? I'm speculating here as I really don't know how the outsourcing works. If it's all paid up though and production has begun this could possibly change things? Please correct me or improve on what I'm saying if able.

    There may well be no insurance, with no sense of how long it would take to receive if there is, and I don't even know if the SK range has started production yet - I don't remember a confirmation at ay point? - but these are potentials that may change how things start working in the near future. If not, unless something else is worked out, it clearly can't continue in the way that it currently is. These are reasons I still think it's worth holing steady for a little bit longer. Survive! definitely need to talk to us properly though and soon.
     
  20. Troutmark

    Troutmark

    1
    Mar 30, 2015
    I have purchase 7 knives from Survive over the last 2.5 years. All are of the highest quality and perform to the highest expectations. They were all ordered through the Survive website. All orders took longer than the quoted time but all were DELIVERED. I was always taught to treat people with respect and deal with them one on one if you have a problem. I utilized the message option on the website whenever I had a question. I would encourage anyone who has a problem to deal directly with Survive. It always worked for me. Not much respect for anyone hiding behind a computer spouting hate.
     
    dragfree likes this.
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