Potentially problematic judgement in Canada

C

clearkevin

Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
979
Hey Guys
Want to give everyone a heads up I am in Canada recently had a Mark 6 confiscated citing federal judgement AP-2012-072. This case was specifically regarding a stiletto but was applied in my case to a flipper. I am still working on appealing and will say that Border Services has been very helpful and assured me that the knife will not be destroyed as is usually the case. Anyway the agent said that it could be that when this judgement which became applicable in Jan of 2015 is applied that all flippers will be prohibited. He actually suggested all one hand opening knives could be outlawed. Any one know further information about it had a similar experience? I have started the appeal process and have a call in to my MP so hope to know more soon.
 
Buy your knives in Canada.
The people at the border quite often don't know the law, and they seem to have the backing to make stupid decisions stick. :thumbdn:

Some things that are perfectly legal to own end up stopped at the border, not just knives.
 
It took Customs 2 weeks to decide if a brass handle cane was legal to come into the country. :rolleyes:
Then, they charged me a $10 handling fee for all the hard work they did in deciding that a cane was legal to own...
 
Yes if you ever watch border security you'll hear some questionable stuff. If you're on the spot though all you can do is appeal.

I did read the judgement. Off the cuff it seems like someone was resupplying their Mall Ninja/Dungeonmaster gear and they got caught in the net. The AO knives were low quality and sloppy and would fire open with minimal manipulation plus they had the bonus of looking like the traditional juvenile delinquent's blade of choice. The Dungeon Master Knife got tagged as brass knucks.

So in essence someone rolled the dice with the shipment getting through. Then instead of taking their lumps they appealed, failed at the appeal, and a bad ruling was put on the books.

Great job.
 
The sky is not falling:

1. Flippers and one-hand openers in general cannot become illegal through a ruling of these tribunals. All they can do is uphold the decision to confiscate goods. It's civil litigation, not criminal prosecution. They have a well-documented history of supporting whatever argument the CBSA advances -- I have never found a knife case where the tribunal ruled against the CBSA. In this case they accepted the CBSA case despite the fact that the agency disingenuously changed the rationale for confiscation after the fact, and advanced an argument contrary to its own published policy. That would never fly in a criminal case.

2. Nothing in this ruling would support confiscating a flipper or one-hand opener without a spring, unless the knife could be opened by centrifugal force (in which case it would already be prohibited), because such knives can't be said to open "automatically." Extending the notion of a device attached to a handle to include devices attached indirectly to the handle via the blade (and by extension, the blade itself) without reference to whether the knife opens automatically would effectively ban all folding knives, including Swiss Army Knives, which open by means of hand pressure applied to the blade, a device attached to the handle. This is clearly not the intent of the law. What "automatically" means has already been determined by the courts.
 
Thanks guys good info from all, I don't think the agent I talked to was fully informed. He did indicate that the appeal would probably work. I'll follow up with the results.
 
Wanted to update the thread a little, I spoke with Canada Border Services today and the agent informed me that a new jurisprudence (Mar 2015) has expanded the definition of automatic knife (auto's are prohibited in Canada) to include a flipper. This ruling is not yet being applied across the board they tend to let knives through that have multiple deployment options but knives that are flipper only are being detained. The agent did say that if the knife won't fully deploy then it will be allowed so maybe tightening the pivot will get a knife through. The list of weapons deemed prohibited has not been updated so there is no way to know this until it's too late.
 
I had a Ferrum Forge flipper held, examined (package was cut open and the knife looked at, not just x-rays), then sent the rest of the way to my door, about a month ago. So it's not every flipper... yet. I hope this was just an over-zealous agent, and this doesn't keep happening. I also had another flipper come from Russia a couple weeks ago, but I didn't see any stickers from customs, or any evidence they'd investigated further. I've had many flippers cross the border since January of this year, with no problems yet.

Why flippers, and not axis-locks and assisted openers? Are Gerber Torch II flippers being sold in Canadian Tire? Just curious...

Sorry to hear about your Mark 6, Kevin, that's gotta be very disappointing. Hope you get it back, and I really hope this is a mistake... :(
 
I saw that redit thread, I am going to have to return my knife to the seller which is really sad it was to be my first custom. I hope people contact their MP's over this. Further I hope agents are forced to take the law as written rather than the subjectivity that is going on now. It really places a dark cloud over collecting in Canada in general. I hope something can be done to fix some of this. Gun laws have recently really improved so maybe knives can as well.
 
Clearkevin, thanks for posting this and performing a thorough analysis.

I'm a Canadian who travels to the USA for business. Sometimes I buy knives and bring them home, either by shipping them or by putting them in my checked luggage. This new ruling has me worried. Some thoughts/questions:

(1)
Often when you buy an item from a retailer, the shipping declaration on the package will explicitly say "knife" on it. However, in my situation, I simply ship the package to myself and if I am careful I do not need to declare it as a knife. In your understanding of the new law, do you think this would work?

(2)
When I cross the border at an airport, does Canada Customs inspect checked luggage in the same way they check shipped item? I am wondering if I can continue to put knives in checked luggage. Thoughts on this?

(3) It sounds like Customs opened your packaged and physically inspected you knife to determine whether it is compliant. However, if I disassemble the knife, surely the average customs agent would be unable to tell if it was a flipper. What do you think?

I know you're not a lawyer, and my questions are toeing the legal line. Just looking for your opinion.
 
Unknown-Unknown said:
Hey, clearkevin. I just wanted to let you know that it appears this is going into force, because another Canadian had two knives (including an ESEE Avispa... which... isn't even a flipper) seized by customs and declared "prohibited."
Click to expand...

That's not necessarily anything new. It has always been the case that if the agent can flip the knife open by centrifugal force, it is prohibited. So the Avispa could simply be a loose pivot.

uffeux said:
I'm a Canadian who travels to the USA for business. Sometimes I buy knives and bring them home....

(2)
When I cross the border at an airport, does Canada Customs inspect checked luggage in the same way they check shipped item? I am wondering if I can continue to put knives in checked luggage. Thoughts on this?

(3) It sounds like Customs opened your packaged and physically inspected you knife to determine whether it is compliant. However, if I disassemble the knife, surely the average customs agent would be unable to tell if it was a flipper. What do you think?
Click to expand...

I often travel to the States for work, and often bring back knives. Usually, I am crossing by road, but airports are no different. CBSA does not routinely inspect baggage. I declare what I've bought in the US, describing folders as pocket knives. At most, I've simply been asked if any are "switchblades." Your mileage, of course, may vary. I think that packages moving across the border get more scrutiny because of the obvious ease of importing illegal knives through the mail.

Disassembling the knife isn't going to accomplish much, IMO, other than to raise eyebrows. CBSA agents aren't dumb and if they see a disassembled knife they'll figure there's a reason it's disassembled.

However, past rulings in which knives were confiscated because of loose pivots have always held that it is the condition of the knife at the time of inspection that matters; if it flips open by centrifugal force when the agent looks at it then it doesn't matter that you can adjust it to make it legal. It would be difficult for them to make the inverse argument: that a knife which could not be flipped open was nonetheless prohibited because one might adjust it so it could be. So I would suggest the best bet is to tighten the pivot to the point at which the knife can't be flipped open.
 
After getting feedback from lots of people and places and repeated conversations with border services I think a tight pivot is the best solution. The agent said that they will test the knife to see if they can get it to fully lock open (her words) using the flipper if they can it will be deemed prohibited. With a tight pivot they will not be able to flip flick or whip (centrifugal force) open the knife. I of course have not yet tried to test this but would think it's the best bet. This is also a good idea if you live where you may be asked by a police officer if they can test the knife. The only problem may be bearing pivots that work well even when tight.
Thanks for all the comments and I will keep you updated as things progress. Maybe you'll see a MK 6 posted for sale shortly then you'll know what happened.
 
A strong detent. Or buy from Knifecenter and mention that you think it won't make it across the border, so you'll take the balisong option. They'll direct you to buy through their third-party of choice, and take steps to get it through. PVK straight up get smugly about it. Wonderful lads, can't hand out any links though, as they're not sponsored. I've purchased several autos and balisongs from the US, and all showed up as promised. Now that extends to flippers. Screw them. I'll happily break unjust laws... 'duty of just men' and all that.
 
are automatic knives legal in canada? im thinking of buying a Benchmade CLA 4300 and send it to my friend in whistler and he will bring it to me in copenhagen. does any know a canadian knife store where i can order this knife and dont risk that the border controll will take it? what should i do? he doesnt plan to carry the knife, only have it at home and bring it to me.
 
Last edited:
clearkevin said:
I saw that redit thread, I am going to have to return my knife to the seller which is really sad it was to be my first custom. I hope people contact their MP's over this. Further I hope agents are forced to take the law as written rather than the subjectivity that is going on now. It really places a dark cloud over collecting in Canada in general. I hope something can be done to fix some of this. Gun laws have recently really improved so maybe knives can as well.
Click to expand...

The nicer the knife the more chance it will be stolen.
 
So I too have been the latest victim of this judgement, for a Spyderco Tenacious. When speaking to the customs agent she told me that each knife is tested by an agent and if the knife can be opened partially, and then completely by centrifugal force, it is in violation. I asked about the pivot screw... the agent told me that if it is too tight, then it was obviously done to try to circumvent them, and it too will be in violation.

In the Official Customs Document D19-13-2-e.pdf (Page 11); The exception specifically states in 22. Torsion bar assisted-opening knives (folding knife, speed-safe knife, spring-assisted knife)
Then in Section 23. In some cases, torsion bar assisted-opening knives can be opened automatically by gravity or centrifugal force. If this is the case, these knives would fall within the definition of prohibited weapon, and be prohibited under TI 9898.00.00 unless an exemption in that tariff item applies.

The fact that their tests circumvent the detent when the knife is closed by opening it up "partially", and then conducting the "Centrifugal Force" tests, seems a little under handed to me.

Looks like they dotted their "i's" and crossed their "t's" on this one... I mentioned that the term "device attached to the handle" being a thumb stud or flipper on the blade = the blade itself, so why would a Victorinox not fall in this class? The agent told me that type of knife is listed as an exception. She told me that the bottom line is that ANY knife that can be opened with one hand will be subject to this judgement.

Nice... I just lost this Tenacious with custom glow scales and backspacer... a 200$ (CAD) knife in total. I don't know what to do... I feel sick to my stomach about all this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top