Production M390 - Expectation vs Reality?

[stabman]

I suppose it comes down to whether a person is speaking in terms of a company’s aimed range, or a range more like 60-62. That is for each person to decide.

The range the company is aiming for is what should be being tested for.

What an optimal hardness for a given alloy is another discussion, and one that will have many people disagreeing.

 

[Banter 247]

The range the company is aiming for is what should be being tested for.

What an optimal hardness for a given alloy is another discussion, and one that will have many people disagreeing.

The tests have been reported showing both an estimated optimal range and an advertised range, in the data sheet, as opposed to being reported in the context of one standard. That was specifically to allow people to take from it what they will.

Ultimately, third party verification is something I believe is best practice, regardless. My interest in this isn’t to drive left or right. I prefer to deal with best available data, and to learn from patterns emerging from it.

With that, I’m off to sleep.

 

[FiveToes]

Here you go:

In the interest of objectivity, here are notes:

1. Tester arranged meeting at Peters with their guy.

2. They compared notes on testing methodology and calibrated process.

3. The Dom did hit higher than previous. They hit it multiple times, could not collectively figure out what was different, and agreed that a third test was a good idea.

4. They tested one previously untested blade, as noted in the linked comment. Results were in-range for what Lionsteel has aimed for.

5. They tested multiple (if memory serves correctly, 4) other, previously tested samples to calibrate and confirmed the results on those.

My advice to the group, as mentioned elsewhere/previously, has been to third party verify any low outliers and report privately to companies first.

My advice to the group, as mentioned elsewhere/previously, has been to third party verify any low outliers and report privately to companies first.

This looks like another example of more data being better. I really do hope the Lionsteel didn't end up being as low as originally thought. That felt like an insult to collectors or a complete lack of QA. I hope this leads to an amicable ending for everyone, though the wording in his post appears to be preamble to other actions.

 

[b00n]

I suppose it comes down to whether a person is speaking in terms of a company’s aimed range, or a range more like 60-62. That is for each person to decide.

Companys aimed HRC should be what matters. Nobody complains to Dodge that their factory tuned engines aren't putting out as much HP as they could. Same thing imho.

 

[FiveToes]

Companys aimed HRC should be what matters. Nobody complains to Dodge that their factory tuned engines aren't putting out as much HP as they could. Same thing imho.

Well, there's certainly a degree of disatisfaction to be conveyed on both subjects, though expectations should be set appropriately. We should expect manufacturers to maintain the specifications they define and hold them accountable if they don't. We can also communicate our displeasure with them creating those specifications at the low water mark, though that's nothing more than industry feedback that they may or may not heed.

Neither is unreasonable.

ETA: a word

 

[Eli Chaps]

Thanks for posting Mike's comments. My limited interactions with him have been quite positive. That information and my history with Mike is enough for me to feel that whatever happened was an outlier of whatever nature and lionSteel is providing what they say they are. Which is awesome news!

 

[b00n]

Well, there's certainly a degree of disatisfaction to be conveyed on both subjects, though expectations should be set appropriately. We should expect manufacturers to maintain the specifications they define and hold them accountable if they don't. We can also communicate our displeasure with them creating those specifications at the low water mark, though that's nothing more than industry feedback that they may or may not here.

Neither is unreasonable.

Of course, it makes no sense to use a certain steel and aim for subpar performance/numbers.

 

[FiveToes]

Of course, it makes no sense to use a certain steel and aim for subpar performance/numbers.

I fully agree. I'm on the edge of calling it disingenuous, really no different than a clickbait article in pocket jewelry form. I don't know if we have a good way to identify or police it without defining and standardizing heat treats for various steels. M390 tells me 1/3 of the pertinent information I require to know the performance of a blade. Another 1/3 is easily viewed/measured/changed by the end user. Without saying M390 with a "Spyderco 6A" treatment, we're not looking at the full picture.

 

[microbe]

Maybe the measuring device matters....

 

[Danke42]

Of course, it makes no sense to use a certain steel and aim for subpar performance/numbers.

Yeah but it seems like some folks expect to show up for a round of golf and par 18.

 

[Banter 247]

Maybe the measuring device matters....

The tester at Peters also has a maintained and calibrated Wilson 4jr right outside his office, and had no qualms about the machine used. This is supported by the other samples each lining up.

These are two very experienced guys, who confirmed testing methodology with each other, etc. Neither could explain the variance with the one sample, and they agreed that it was worth further testing or exploration.

 

[craytab]

So, my take away is that the knives were the hardness the manufacturer claimed...
Doesn't sound like there's an epidemic of soft knives out there after all.
At least that seems like what this might mean, based on my reading of words.

Are you telling me the sky isn't falling?

 

[b00n]

The tester at Peters also has a maintained and calibrated Wilson 4jr right outside his office, and had no qualms about the machine used. This is supported by the other samples each lining up.

These are two very experienced guys, who confirmed testing methodology with each other, etc. Neither could explain the variance with the one sample, and they agreed that it was worth further testing or exploration.

I feel like I might be stirring up things but who is this magical HRC Leprechaun named Kurt anyway? Who steps away when inconcistencies show up? No offence to him but some random guy who "has access to some HRC tester" doesn't instill confidence. Like what are his credentials? I have seen CNC machines and know how they work but I am still not a qualified CNC operator? It's kind of like a scientific paper written by anonymous, how factual is it when you get down to it?

 

[microbe]

I feel like I might be stirring up things but who is this magical HRC Leprechaun named Kurt anyway? Who steps away when inconcistencies show up? No offence to him but some random guy who "has access to some HRC tester" doesn't instill confidence. Like what are his credentials? I have seen CNC machines and know how they work but I am still not a qualified CNC operator? It's kind of like a scientific paper written by anonymous, how factual is it when you get down to it?

edited to a sfw image

 

[ScooterG]

Are you telling me the sky isn't falling?

The sky fell years ago. We’ve just been too busy making up new problems to solve to notice.

 

[skyhorse]

I’m not legally trained, so I’ll defer regarding legal matters. I don’t expect everyone to trust his results, but having had visibility on everything behind the scenes, I do. Multiple third party confirmations of results, by testers of companies’ choosing.

As for why he stepped away... personal choice. This started for him as an academic curiosity. He’s a family man, with a regular job, prioritizing those things.

After starting all this plastered over several social media platforms his timing to step away is amazing.

 

[FiveToes]

I feel like I might be stirring up things but who is this magical HRC Leprechaun named Kurt anyway? Who steps away when inconcistencies show up?

With what little I know I'd hedge a guess that the post above and his disconnect are directly related. Hobby research is fine in off hours until you stir up a hornet's nest and have to walk away to keep your job.

Again, this is speculation but we probably shouldn't poke this bear. For Kurt's sake.

 

[b00n]

With what little I know I'd hedge a guess that the post above and his disconnect are directly related. Hobby research is fine in off hours until you stir up a hornet's nest and have to walk away to keep your job.

Again, this is speculation but we probably shouldn't poke this bear. For Kurt's sake.

Yeah but it's a valid question isn't it? If somebody like Larrin did it it who has clearly metallurgy knowledge it's one thing but random Kurt who has access to a tester? I just don't know how much stock I can/should put into his findings, especially when he happens to step away just when things heat up...
Anyway I think I will do the same and just watch from the sidelines.

 

[Banter 247]

After starting all this plastered over several social media platforms his timing to step away is amazing.

I can see why it looks that way. It’s also telling that he traveled to Peters in person to meet their blade division lead face to face, with samples and documentation in hand.

Ultimately, where we’re left is that best practice is verify outliers first, then report privately.

 

[Danke42]

Yeah but it's a valid question isn't it? If somebody like Larrin did it it who has clearly metallurgy knowledge it's one thing but random Kurt who has access to a tester? I just don't know how much stock I can/should put into his findings, especially when he happens to step away just when things heat up...
Anyway I think I will do the same and just watch from the sidelines.

"things heat up",

I guess his temper isn't suited to having his results checked.