Production M390 - Expectation vs Reality?

djdawg said:
So whats the heat treat of Hinderers M-390 ?
Are all company cheating on the heat treat ?
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It’s not necessarily cheating in every case. This family of steels (and Elmax) basically bleed hardness if you’re not quick on travel time. Even companies trying to hit 60-61 are going to fall short without extreme attention to that piece.

So... three things are at play to varying degrees, with different companies:

1. “We want it lower because (bad logic)”

2. Short cutting

3. Batch size vs travel time
 
I'd also be curious to see some results on Hinderer's M390/20CV. Smaller scale company that has a solid reputation for attention to their HT. Their S35VN has always performed well because of this, in my experience/memory. I believe they ran it a bit harder than even the current hardness at CRK, around 60-61, and I can definitely tell a difference between the two in sharpening.

Has anyone done any testing, either HRC or cut tests on Hinderer M390/20CV?
 
halden.doerge said:
I'd also be curious to see some results on Hinderer's M390/20CV. Smaller scale company that has a solid reputation for attention to their HT. Their S35VN has always performed well because of this, in my experience/memory. I believe they ran it a bit harder than even the current hardness at CRK, around 60-61, and I can definitely tell a difference between the two in sharpening.

Has anyone done any testing, either HRC or cut tests on Hinderer M390/20CV?
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Elliot at Sharp Thinking just did a Hinderer vs CRK S35VN rope test this week, which is the only Hinderer cut test I’m aware of. He commented in chat that he thought it may be a relative geometry issue, not ht, which caused the Hinderer to come in around 360 cuts vs 500ish, iirc.

I’d love to see more data on it, as well.
 
Banter 247 said:
Elliot at Sharp Thinking just did a Hinderer vs CRK S35VN rope test this week, which is the only Hinderer cut test I’m aware of. He commented in chat that he thought it may be a relative geometry issue, not ht, which caused the Hinderer to come in around 360 cuts vs 500ish, iirc.

I’d love to see more data on it, as well.
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Yeah geometry would definitely matter a lot with Hinderers, given how thick some of their primary grinds are.
 
halden.doerge said:
Yeah geometry would definitely matter a lot with Hinderers, given how thick some of their primary grinds are.
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I think... Alchemy1, Supersteel Steve, Sharp Thinking, and Nero Knives each have Hinderers in various steels, so we’ll probably have hrc tests at some point soonish.

I’m interested in getting more data on Peters and Bos ht. So far, I believe Bos has been ... stop me if you’ve heard this before... in range, except for the one 20CV sample tested, which hit at 58.
 
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Very interesting thread here.

Anyone know about WE's HT? I'm seeing them put out a lot of M390 knives, and making them for others. I saw one data point for a 60-62 somewhere, which gives me hope.

Also, what about this higher end producers? I see someone asked about Hinderer. What about Olamic, Koenig, and Giant Mouse? I have an Olamic and Ferrum Forge Archbishop Pro (made by WE), and thinking about a Biblio or Arius.

I'm also getting the feeling that S35VN is great, and generally good enough for any general use that I'm doing. And I need to let go of the search for a better super steel, because let's be honest, I'm not cutting enough for it to really matter.
 
xylum said:
Very interesting thread here.

Anyone know about WE's HT? I'm seeing them put out a lot of M390 knives, and making them for others. I saw one data point for a 60-62 somewhere, which gives me hope.

Also, what about this higher end producers? I see someone asked about Hinderer. What about Olamic, Koenig, and Giant Mouse? I have an Olamic and Ferrum Forge Archbishop Pro (made by WE), and thinking about a Biblio or Arius.

I'm also getting the feeling that S35VN is great, and generally good enough for any general use that I'm doing. And I need to let go of the search for a better super steel, because let's be honest, I'm not cutting enough for it to really matter.
Click to expand...

WE had a couple low hits early on, and there was a bit of a Thing between Kenny from InthePocket and Elliot from Ferrum Forge around it. After Kenny looped Elliot in on a low hit, Elliot went to a third party lab and had a bunch of WE made blades tested. My impression from the emails is that it lead to “encouragement” to fix it. As this was happening, a WE Bishop in M390 hit at 58, iirc. Two WE M390 samples known to have been made after that hit 59.8 and 60 (a FF designed WE Malice).

Similarly, WE had some lowish hits on S35VN, iirc. Recently, they hit my gray Keen plus another Keen at 59 and 59.3.

As for getting the other premium makers tested... I may send my Wayfarer 247, which would be the first Olamic. No Koenig, so far. Olamic uses fabrication of parts in Italy, but I don’t know where they do ht, yet.
 
xylum said:
I'm also getting the feeling that S35VN is great, and generally good enough for any general use that I'm doing. And I need to let go of the search for a better super steel, because let's be honest, I'm not cutting enough for it to really matter.
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Pretty much, yeah. I think many of us like the idea of the mystical knife that is super sharp forever, but the cruel reality of physics does not bend to our desires.

Cold Steel’s switch to S35VN, pricing structure, quality control, and design led me to buy a S35VN clip point Recon 1, and that knife has made me see a lot of potential purchases as entirely redundant. The steel is good and treated well, it’s easy to maintain, and it has done all the knife things I have needed to do without showing appreciable wear.

S35VN at ~60HRC is honestly very hard to beat.
 
Have any makers commented on this yet?

In good faith I'd assume it's neither production issues nor margin cutting as the driving force behind the decision.

I was looking for a new kitchen knife the other day on youtube and the reviewers kept talking about how carbon steel gets so sharp. I didn't understand what they were talking about for a moment then it dawned on me they just meant it was soft and easy to sharpen. While some of them certainly knew what they were talking about. I suspect many just assumed any knife that couldn't be sharpened in the way they were taught was flawed in some way. Some of them honing after just a few minutes of cutting. Many of these people have spent more time with a knife in their hands than just about anyone their age. If they don't know much about them who does?

Seems very possible makers just feel their customers will be generally be happier if they don't go so hard with the steel. Even if enthusiasts are not. And enthusiasts don't like chips in their blades either anyway.

There are a whole lot of pros for makers going softer. The only real con is them getting ripped in threads like this and giving up edge retention. A lot less pictures of chipped blades with their logo on the forum I bet tho.
 
Hi Willie! Running it soft may not result in chipping...but rolled edges!!!

I have a new knife coming in S90V from Spyderco. I think it will be fine.
I cannot begin to properly communicate how well the S30V is working
for me in their Lil Native. I am so happy with it!
I hope the carbon scaled Shaman works even better. I will see...
 
cistercian said:
Hi Willie! Running it soft may not result in chipping...but rolled edges!!!

I have a new knife coming in S90V from Spyderco. I think it will be fine.
I cannot begin to properly communicate how well the S30V is working
for me in their Lil Native. I am so happy with it!
I hope the carbon scaled Shaman works even better. I will see...
Click to expand...

Any time you roll an edge a maker can say "user error" IMO. I've rolled some edges doing things like bashing into knots.

Unless the edge's temper was ruined by grinding or something hard to imagine that as a concern.

A chip is much more likely to be like "wait what is that nik in my blade WHAT HAPPENED". With a roll you know
 
BigWillie said:
Have any makers commented on this yet?

In good faith I'd assume it's neither production issues nor margin cutting as the driving force behind the decision.

I was looking for a new kitchen knife the other day on youtube and the reviewers kept talking about how carbon steel gets so sharp. I didn't understand what they were talking about for a moment then it dawned on me they just meant it was soft and easy to sharpen. While some of them certainly knew what they were talking about. I suspect many just assumed any knife that couldn't be sharpened in the way they were taught was flawed in some way. Some of them honing after just a few minutes of cutting. Many of these people have spent more time with a knife in their hands than just about anyone their age. If they don't know much about them who does?

Seems very possible makers just feel their customers will be generally be happier if they don't go so hard with the steel. Even if enthusiasts are not. And enthusiasts don't like chips in their blades either anyway.

There are a whole lot of pros for makers going softer. The only real con is them getting ripped in threads like this and giving up edge retention. A lot less pictures of chipped blades with their logo on the forum I bet tho.
Click to expand...

Spyderco, for example, would be oddly out of line to aim low for M390/20CV/204P, while delivering Maxamet at 69, K390 at 66, M4 at 64, etc. It simply doesn’t make sense as a choice.

It would also prevent the two high end outliers (61, 62), because the steel is time sensitive enough that you’re not hitting 62 on accident.

Production size vs travel time is the simplest possible explanation that I know of to resolve all of the information.

I’m not saying it’s conclusively that. I’m saying it seems very likely to be.
 
BigWillie said:
Any time you roll an edge a maker can say "user error" IMO. I've rolled some edges doing things like bashing into knots.

Unless the edge's temper was ruined by grinding or something hard to imagine that as a concern.

A chip is much more likely to be like "wait what is that nik in my blade WHAT HAPPENED". With a roll you know
Click to expand...

I have a couple of blades that chipped easily and also did not hold an edge! They just sucked.
I have also abused stuff and rolled the edge. A steel can help..if you are lucky.
I would prefer the blade was correctly heat treated to start with...I do not abuse my knives
anymore. I rolled the edge on a buttery soft 420 blade...multiple times. I also repaired it too!
I have, over the years, seen the gamut of FAIL when it comes to knives.

That is why I bought M390 in the first place...it seemed superior!

Probably not so much....
But I do have a Bentobox PM2 in M390. From the same batch as the one that tested 62.
Perhaps I lucked out! I carry it on the weekends and hardly cut much with it.

It is still on the factory edge and is sharp...very sharp.
 
Banter 247 said:
Spyderco, for example, would be oddly out of line to aim low for M390/20CV/204P, while delivering Maxamet at 69, K390 at 66, M4 at 64, etc. It simply doesn’t make sense as a choice.

It would also prevent the two high end outliers (61, 62), because the steel is time sensitive enough that you’re not hitting 62 on accident.

Production size vs travel time is the simplest possible explanation that I know of to resolve all of the information.

I’m not saying it’s conclusively that. I’m saying it seems very likely to be.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what industry standard QA is. But your HRC being that low when as you said have products that are coming out in the high 60s seems very odd. Just sharpening you would notice.

Why even offer m390 if this is such a problem? Makes much more sense many makers feel m390 chips too easily at 60 HRC.
 
BigWillie said:
Have any makers commented on this yet?

In good faith I'd assume it's neither production issues nor margin cutting as the driving force behind the decision.

I was looking for a new kitchen knife the other day on youtube and the reviewers kept talking about how carbon steel gets so sharp. I didn't understand what they were talking about for a moment then it dawned on me they just meant it was soft and easy to sharpen. While some of them certainly knew what they were talking about. I suspect many just assumed any knife that couldn't be sharpened in the way they were taught was flawed in some way. Some of them honing after just a few minutes of cutting. Many of these people have spent more time with a knife in their hands than just about anyone their age. If they don't know much about them who does?

Seems very possible makers just feel their customers will be generally be happier if they don't go so hard with the steel. Even if enthusiasts are not. And enthusiasts don't like chips in their blades either anyway.

There are a whole lot of pros for makers going softer. The only real con is them getting ripped in threads like this and giving up edge retention. A lot less pictures of chipped blades with their logo on the forum I bet tho.
Click to expand...

It's a touch more complicated than "soft and easy to sharpen".

But again, if this is the case, why use steels like M390? Just crank out the other stuff and call it a day.

Chipped blades are not the issue here.
 
I just got my new m390 Delica from BB and carried it for the first time today. I think I ll carry it for the next 2-3 weeks and see how it holds up.
I m very happy with the edge on the new blade..
I ve trusted Spyderco s heat treatments in the past.
 
Eli Chaps said:
It's a touch more complicated than "soft and easy to sharpen".

But again, if this is the case, why use steels like M390? Just crank out the other stuff and call it a day.

Chipped blades are not the issue here.
Click to expand...

Not to most of the population

Even chefs

edit - You guys assuming makers don't know seems a little out there.
 
whp said:
I just got my new m390 Delica from BB and carried it for the first time today. I think I ll carry it for the next 2-3 weeks and see how it holds up.
I m very happy with the edge on the new blade..
I ve trusted Spyderco s heat treatments in the past.
Click to expand...

Cool. Let us know how it works for you!
 
Comeuppance said:
Pretty much, yeah. I think many of us like the idea of the mystical knife that is super sharp forever, but the cruel reality of physics does not bend to our desires.

Cold Steel’s switch to S35VN, pricing structure, quality control, and design led me to buy a S35VN clip point Recon 1, and that knife has made me see a lot of potential purchases as entirely redundant. The steel is good and treated well, it’s easy to maintain, and it has done all the knife things I have needed to do without showing appreciable wear.

S35VN at ~60HRC is honestly very hard to beat.
Click to expand...
I ve been happy with the edge retention of my Cold Steel xhp blades. My recently acquired American Lawman in s35vn has shown very good edge retention also. I really don t need a better stainless for my purposes. If I could just count on the s35vn from other knife makers to be treated as well as the Cold Steel version.
 
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