Propane Torches/Burners... BTUs? Why are some more expensive?

S

strigiform

Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
10
Hi,

I'm totally new to knifemaking and I've read quite a few threads/tutorials online about getting started. I've decided to go the gas forge route. I've also bought a couple of books on the subject like "The $50 Knife Shop".

A lot of newbie forge designs explicitly recommend either:

1. A pre-made burner or pre-planned kit from a place like Hybrid or Zoeller

2. One of those Bernzomatic kits with MAPP

What exactly makes the purpose-built burners 'hotter'? I've noticed the BTUs are all over the place so high BTU doesnt seem to be the only prerequisite? The flame on the special purpose forge burners seems to be a lot more focused and narrow but isn't that detrimental ("hot spots")?

Or im simple terms:

What's stopping me from taking a metal tube, lining it with heat ceramic blanket, blocking off the ends with firebrick, and putting one of these into it http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_266859_266859 ? Isn't 500k BTU enough to get to 1575 F within a reasonable time period?

Since many of the 'real' burner designs are made out of common plumbing components it doesn't seem like there ought to me much difference - but then again I have no clue what I'm talking about, so what is the difference?

Thanks in advance
 
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I dunno why you'd spend $30 on something like that when you can build a venturi burner for $10 or so out of black pipe from Lowes or a little more for a forced air burner depending on how much you pay for a blower.

Other than that I give no advice on gas forges... afraid of someone getting hurt following my advice.

Edited to add:

My forge body is a piece of 10" diameter steel pipe with 2 opposing holes in the upper third and another hole in the lower portion for the burner. It's a vertical forge, I feel that you get better atmospheric control with this style of forge.
 
A couple things,
I'm building 2 forges now. Both use a Zoeller venturi burner. I'm no expert.... The weed burner type torch you linked to has been discussed and is not recommended by anyone that I'm aware of. If you build a forge, use a proven, accepted tutorial.
For a blown forge Indian George's tutorial
http://indiangeorgesknives.com/building_a_forge.html

Here's a good link with lot's of info as well

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757115&highlight=venturi+forge+build

It also helps to fill out your profile so people know where you are from, and basic info as to your background, age and abilities..

I saw that in another post you say you are a student with zero funds. I'd suggest a one brick forge using Mapp gas. I'm a plumber, and haven't used propane for years as the Mapp burns hotter, though for a one brick the propane should suffice.
A word of caution. If you are broke now, plan on being even poorer. As has been said Knifemaking is hazardous to your wallet. LOL.
Welcome to BF.
 
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. Added my location. And like you said occupation is poor college student. The 1 brick newbie setup looks increasingly appealing as I realize every sq in of forge in turn ups the burner costs.

Since getting a nice anvil, attachments, hammers, etc would be another big investment I've decided to go the stock removal route with my existing grinder. This would only need to reach heat treat temperature. Relevant or irrelevant? Will I still probably need MAPP?
 
strigiform said:
Thanks for the suggestions guys. Added my location. And like you said occupation is poor college student. The 1 brick newbie setup looks increasingly appealing as I realize every sq in of forge in turn ups the burner costs.

Since getting a nice anvil, attachments, hammers, etc would be another big investment I've decided to go the stock removal route with my existing grinder. This would only need to reach heat treat temperature. Relevant or irrelevant? Will I still probably need MAPP?
Click to expand...


SSIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It does not take a nice anvil, hammer attachments or anything expensive other than blood, sweat and tears to make a knife. I probably need to start cutting and pasting this.

My first anvil was an 8# sledgehammer in a 5 gallon bucket of concrete. My first hammer cost $5 at Harbor Freight and I still have and use it. My first forge was a barbeque grill I got out of someone's garbage, added some black pipe, yard sale hair dryer for a blower and lined it with 1/3 perlite, 1/3 masonry sand and 1/3 cheap (clay) kitty litter. I forged using chunk charcoal.

Look up "freon tank forge" for some cheap forge ideas. Look up "primal fires" and "neo-tribal bladesmiths" for tips on how to get started forging.

You couldn't have been poorer than me... at the time I was married with 2 kids and made $7/hour with a stay at home wife.
 
I just get a lot of conficting info person to person..

lots of knife forums saying anything less than a "200+ lbs hardened forged steel austro-hungarian type XVIII-C pattern" (made that up of course) anvil is unsuitable for knifemaking. For someone like me I'm wondering if they literally mean factually unusable or not optimal for a master bladesmith? before that I was gonna pick up one of those russian anvils from harbor freight.. which people told me to avoid like the plague

same with heat treating of course.. campfire pit and a bucket of canola oil or electronic kiln and cryogenic freezer, take your pick or guesstimate something in between. From what I can tell thats a stock removal setup with a 1 burner gas forge. So I've narrowed it down at least.

My objective is just to make functional knives as a break from being in a computer classroom all day.. nothing fancy

I'm not lazy and have read a LOT of FAQs, stickies, tutorials, but they just vary wildly in every direction
 
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Stock Removal; no forge or anvil needed just files and sandpaper and either use air hardening steel & send it out or get some 1084 from Aldo and do a camp fire heat treat. You can get McMaster Carr 11 second quench oil for about $20/ gallon delivered or use mineral or or ATF/used motor oil.
Hardest part will be roughing out the blade & handle shape.
I used to fish & drink when I wasn't studying:D
 
strigiform said:
I just get a lot of conficting info person to person..

lots of knife forums saying anything less than a "200+ lbs hardened forged steel austro-hungarian type XVIII-C pattern" (made that up of course) anvil is unsuitable for knifemaking. For someone like me I'm wondering if they literally mean factually unusable or not optimal for a master bladesmith?

same with heat treating of course.. campfire pit and a bucket of canola oil or electronic kiln and cryogenic freezer, take your pick or guesstimate something in between

My objective is just to make functional knives as a break from being in a computer classroom all day.. nothing fancy

I'm not lazy and have read a LOT of FAQs, stickies, tutorials, but they just vary wildly in every direction
Click to expand...

I know what you mean. I literally started with the 50 Dollar Knife Shop, and almost a thousand dollars and 3 months later I started my first knife. Today.(thanks Kelly Cupples for the steel)... :D
Granted, I have more money than you do, less than others, I feel like I short changed myself 3 months of experience. Though, I feel as if thanks to all the generous advice of the peope on here I have a huge head start on creating something to be proud of.
My advice is listen to Will. He's only hard on Indian George(who I hear deserves it :rolleyes: ).... Look at some of the posts by Unky_Gumbi and his file guide. He made really nice knives to start with lots of elbow grease.
 
Basically here's what I always tell people. A knifemaker is going to make a knife.... doesn't matter what tools he does or doesn't have.

Use a known steel, you can get O1 barstock from any machine supply company, 1080 from Admiral Steel and 1084 from Aldo (my favorite.) Known steels will allow us to help you with problems (you will have problems) if you start a post with "I found some metal in a ditch and a guy in a truck said it'll make a good knife" we can't help you very much. When you start a post with "I have some XXXX steel, I did this, this and this and this is the result" we can probably help you.

A bad anvil will lead to large arms and a bad attitude, a quality anvil is a joy to use.

I've used both, I'm back to having a so so anvil that is a 4x4x18 piece of high carbon steel squared off on one end for a Japanese cutler's anvil. See if you can go by a junk yard and pick up a piece of fairly clean solid steel. The difference between an ASO (anvil shaped object) and a real anvil is rebound. A quality anvil requires less effort during forging because the anvil returns the hammer almost to it's starting height.

Get a 2# engineers hammer from anywhere you can.

Get some files and rasps. The better you hammer the less you file, I was taught "10 minutes with a hammer is 1 hour with a file" of course if you hammer badly then you're adding work, of course you can always tell people it's a hammer finish. The rasps are for shaping wood. You'll need a lot of sandpaper, take what you think you'll need then buy 4 times that amount. Don't cheap out on files or sandpaper. I like Nicholson or Cooper files. Use sandpaper like it's disposable because old sandpaper is less than useless, it's a waste of your time and energy.

You can quench in heated canola oil. It is optimum like Parks 50 or AAA or Houghtons? No but your first several blades will have other problems besides losing 1 or 2 rc points.

Watch a bunch of youtube videos on forging or visit someone's shop.

Spend hours looking at pictures of successful maker's knives. Why choose those guys? well they're probably doing something right. Then spend some time sketching blades.
 
The ratio of hammer size to anvil weight needs to be 20:1 or greater. That means for most knife work, a 75# anvil will be the minimum. The larger the anvil, the bigger the work piece ( blade stock) and hammer that can be worked on it......and the less force you need to apply from your arm. If the anvil is too light, or of softer less suitable material ( iron or unhardened steel) it will absorb too much of the energy from the hammer blow, thus resulting in less shaping of the blade. This means having to use more arm force to do the same work.

For most blade work, a 100-125# reasonable quality anvil will work fine.
Placing the anvil on a solid and heavy base also helps.
 
strigiform said:
I just get a lot of conficting info person to person..

lots of knife forums saying anything less than a "200+ lbs hardened forged steel austro-hungarian type XVIII-C pattern" (made that up of course) anvil is unsuitable for knifemaking. For someone like me I'm wondering if they literally mean factually unusable or not optimal for a master bladesmith? before that I was gonna pick up one of those russian anvils from harbor freight.. which people told me to avoid like the plague

same with heat treating of course.. campfire pit and a bucket of canola oil or electronic kiln and cryogenic freezer, take your pick or guesstimate something in between. From what I can tell thats a stock removal setup with a 1 burner gas forge. So I've narrowed it down at least.

My objective is just to make functional knives as a break from being in a computer classroom all day.. nothing fancy

I'm not lazy and have read a LOT of FAQs, stickies, tutorials, but they just vary wildly in every direction
Click to expand...

AMEN Brother!!!!! Like you, I have no delusions of being a great knifemaker. The word you used, "functional", is what I hope my knives are also. My biggest internal debate has been about heat treating. I understand that I can not do justice to the steel with my cobbled together forge, but I do what I can do. I'm in this not to make a living or become famous but to have fun and turn out "fun - ctional" knives. (Pretty clever, huh?)

Making knives won't cure cancer or bring about world peace. Do what you can do. It's too much fun to pass up.

- Paul Meske
 
Hi guys,

Heh, well said Paul.

Alas, I decided to order one of these pre-made, 2-burner "CK Forge" forges. It's hard to find much info about them... but good Ebay customer rating for what it's worth...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK2cSd8FGUA (not my video, haven't received mine yet)

It's similarly sized to the 2 burner knifemaking forges Diamonback and Majestic are selling, but it was $200 brand new plus $40 shipping rather than $300 with $90 shipping... Almost half the price. Half the quality? There's always a chance, but we'll see.

I figure even building the burners from scratch, finding a hose w/ regulator, ordering a bunch of firebrick and wrapping sheet metal around it, I would have not surpassed but very closely approached the price of this one which is already built. Might add door on one end, looks perfect for me other than that.

I'll let you know if its a great deal or a nightmare.
 
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Welcome Strigiform,

You can close off the rear end of the forge by stacking some firebrick up. You can also partially close up the front end with some too.

Have you been watching Craig's List and eBay for an anvil? Search Tempest, can help you out with that. Just put in your zipcode and mile radius to search in. It will list all hits within the area. I picked up one of the 110 lb anvils at HF a few years back for not much more than $50. We still use it for high school classes.

California is a big place. Can you narrow it down for us any? Knowing where you are could help folks make better referrals. There are lots of bladesmiths and blacksmiths in the state. The California Blacksmith Association may be a good reference too. The give nearly free classes all over. Their events often have tailgate sales of used stuff too. Good luck!

All the best, Phil
 
Hi Mr. Dwyer,

More specifically, Bakersfield

I had never heard of the California Blacksmith Association much less knew they gave cheap/free classes.. very cool info, thanks
 
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