"Proper " thermal cycling/normalization

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Feb 18, 2016
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So in a fb group adam desorsiers asked if anyone could explain why we use descending temps in the 25-50 deg range for thermal cycles prior to hardening a blade. Bill burke posted a link that said basically as long as you normalize at critical then again below it that your fine.
Was wanting to get your take on it (really hoping Larrin Larrin gives his thoughts)
Please dont take this as a "he said she said" type of thing, I was talking to bill and I said I'd ask here to get larrin thoughts so he was very interested in what he had to say.
 
I will try to keep this to a reasonable length without going in a million directions and without giving too much background. So I am at risk of being misunderstood but otherwise it would be too long.

After forging the typical recommendation is normalizing. After forging there is often an uneven grain size, uneven distribution of stresses, and uneven distribution of cementite/carbides. Normalizing is at a relatively high temperature (1650-1700°F) to dissolve all of the carbides and to achieve an even (not necessarily smaller) grain size.

To achieve good grindability and for drilling holes, etc. An anneal is usually performed. There are several different types of anneals. Two important ones are a full cycle anneal (heat to austenite and slow cool) and another is a subcritical anneal where it is held below critical or cycled just below critical.

Grain refinement is not a required step and can be done at different stages. It is sometimes done after normalizing to refine the "new" grain structure and then a subcritical anneal is performed so that the prior austenite grain structure is not affected. It can also be done as part of final austenitization/hardening such as with a "prequench" or "triple quench." With grain refinement the purpose is to form small austenite grains, then cool to pearlite or martensite and then do it again. Therefore you want to be above critical to form austenite but too high would lead to larger grains which is not desirable for this step. So this step isn't required; many good knives have been made with steel that was forged, normalized, annealed, and then given a final heat treatment. But I know everyone wants their knives to be the best:


To add further complication there is also a "stress relief" treatment that can be done at even lower temperature (1100-1200°F) that is sometimes done after grinding operations to relieve stresses from grinding. It is essentially a high temperature tempering treatment.

A popular method of "thermal cycling" is to do a normalize followed by "grain refinement" cycles followed by a subcritical anneal. That leads to a decrease in temperature through these different cycle types: 1600-1700°F followed by 1350-1450°F followed by 1250-1300°F. Add a stress relief and you have even a fourth step at even lower temperature. So when you add that up you get this:
thermal cycling.jpg
So someone saw that progression in temperature and decided if a little is good, then more is even better, and took the progression above which has some reason behind it and added in more steps in between:
excessive cycling.jpg
But for the reasons described above there isn't a purpose as far as I am aware to add in all of those temperatures in between.
 
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Awesome larrin thank you for taking the time to break it down. Ok so just so I make sure i understand it right after forging its :
-1650-normalizing
-Annealing
(Grind, drill holes etc.)
- grain refining - (Heat to critical-cool to black)
-optional stress relief
-quench
 
The reason I have heard is that using a forge may not be super precise so the descending heats is to avoid undoing the previous heat.

It's not something I know about just the explanation I heard. Well I know the getting it all right in the forge is tough so I bought a oven. Hopefully I will stop screwing up 80CrV2 now. Lol

Oh I loved the song. Maybe I can turn it into my alarm just to start my day out right:p
 
Awesome larrin thank you for taking the time to break it down. Ok so just so I make sure i understand it right after forging its :
-1650-normalizing
-Annealing
(Grind, drill holes etc.)
- grain refining - (Heat to critical-cool to black)
-optional stress relief
-quench
If you are looking for a specific process to follow one place you can look is Kevin Cashen's video which I reviewed here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/06/25/review-kevin-cashens-guide-to-1084/

He, along with several others, recommends normalize, grain refining, annealing, grinding, optional stress relief, austenitize and quench.
 
I think skillgannon is on track.

In theory, if you had excellent heat control, in the thermal cycling step(s), you would get the same results with steel x by heating to critical temperature y and air cooling 3 times as you would heating to critical temperature y the first time and air cooling then decreasing the temp 50 degrees and air cooling on each of the next two cycles.
 
I'm still not sure I agree with the rationale. Normalizing is done at a much higher temperature than grain refinement, and moving to lower temperatures won't help with that. Grain refinement just needs to reach non-magnetic which is pretty easy to check for even without good temperature control. Trying to reach some intermediate point wouldn't make your life any simpler.
 
Many of us, who forge blades, incorporate normalizing followed by grain refinement, as part of the forging process. I've been forging for so many years that I do this as a matter of course.
 
I used to use descending heats while thermal cycling (after normalizing). As in normalize at 1650/1700f and air cool. But after a little more research and reading from guys like Larrin (see post #7), I keep the temp just above critical on 3 cycles, quenching on the last. All that needs to happen for the aus grain to be refined is the phase change to austenite. Going too much above critical is not necessary, and may not achieve what we are after. I stay out of that 1525f-1550f area now. New process is ~1475f 3x quench on last cycle. Or 1500, 1475, 1450f quench, then harden. (talking low alloy high carbon steels like 52100, W2, O1, etc)
 
What are your thoughts (anyone and everyone) about the necessity of the "sub-critical" anneal following the thermal cycling? My thoughts:

1. On the last thermal cycle and air cool, the resulting structure is lamellar pearlite. This is easily ground on the grinder, but lamellar pearlite is not so friendly to drill bits and machining. So if no machining or drilling needs to be done, I say skip the anneal.
2. On the last thermal cycle and quench, the resulting structure is martensite (let's say we tempered it, as you don't want to grind un-tempered martensite from what I have seen). This is also easy to grind on the grinder, but is a horrible micro-structure to drill/machine. If we quench on the last thermal cycle and drilling/machining needs to be done, then the sub-critical anneal is almost necessary. Maybe if belt life was an issue, too.

And if the "best" micro-structure to harden from is martensite, and the sub-critical anneal was done resulting in spheroidite, you would need to perform a "pre-quench" prior to your final hardening heat (or do multiple quenches, which I see as different than a "pre-quench"). So to illustrate with 52100 after forging (or heavily spheroidized bar stock) that needed to be machined after normalizing and cycling:
Normalize 1700°F air cool
Thermal cycle 1475°F air cool x 2
Thermal cycle 1475°F quench
Sub-critical anneal (I don't do this, because...)
Machining/Drilling (...I don't do this)
Pre-quench 1450°F
Harden 1475°F quench
Temper
 
That's a whole lotta heats, Stu... basically 6 cycles above critical. IMO you can do away with a couple.
After forging...
1700F, cool to magnetic
1475-1500F, cool to magnetic (1st grain refinement)
1475-1500F, quench in oil (2nd grain refinement)
2-3 subcritical anneal cycles
drill grind, etc...
Final hardening at 1475-1500F, quench in oil. (3rd grain refinement)
 
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