Puncture Defence Weapons, Good Option or Not??

A

Allen Blade

BANNED
Joined
Oct 29, 1999
Messages
498
Hello,

In todays world of Blood born Disease, ie...HIV, Hep. Would you think a Puncture
Weapon if used right could be as effective
as a Edged blade in stopping or halting an
agression.

I remember the Days of the Keys in the Eyes, cane up side the head, ect..

With Todays Blood Born Pathogens wandering the streets in a persentage of the Criminal population that we are training or carrying defensive weapons for protection against,
I think a PUNCTURE weapon is a valid
option. I think valid neurological and
aggressivly Quick termination areas can be reached on a Subject with a Puncture Defensive weapon just as with a Edged Blade.

I always have worried that if forced to use a Blade in a Life saving Defensive manner
that such an act can produce massive amounts of Body Fluids exiting the body.

I would think that A puncture Weapon could enter easily and disrupt vital organs below skin level and drastically minimize any possible contact with the attacker`s Body fluids.

SO i guess the question is do any of you also carry a Type of Edgeless Puncture Device and why??
 
That's Probably a question for the Tactics and Training forum. However, as a Person not trained in Edged Weapons, I would say that I'm Most interested in stopping the Attack. As long as I'm not Wounded, the Blood of my Attacker is Irrelevant.

------------------
Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!
 
Puncture wounds are probably the LEAST effective sort you can inflict. Your aim is to damage vital structures, and cause massive bleeding. A ice pick type of weapon minimizes your chances of doing either. See my post on the Tactics Forum about how slowly a person who is fatally injured will actually take to die. Walt
 
Now wait a minute, a puncture to something important will drop someone a lot faster than a whole boatload of superficial slashing. In fact, you can generaly take a lot more slashing than puncturing.

The difference being that placement is more important with the puncture than slash, though even the slash must be well targetted.

Personaly, I like a weapon that can pierce and slash, but I'll take the pierce over the slash generaly.

Since I carry knives as a matter of course, I tend to select a blade that will pierce well, nearly all can cut tolerably.

Anyway, with an icepick go for the heart or lungs, or eyes. If you aren't sure where the heart and lungs are, just stick it in the middle of the chest, a little to the left, and wiggle it around.

Punctures bleed less than slashes, which means less chance for transmition of blood born pathogens. If you have never been in a real knife fight you have no apreciation for how much blood is produced by slashing. It's really gross. Yet it generaly looks worse than it is. I've seen girls slash eachother to ribbons in razor fights and both of the survive. Some can even walk onto the ambulance, or run away.

[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited 01 December 1999).]
 
I have seen numerous "cutlery" attacks, and some of the most effective were with ice picks, and phillips head screwdrivers (the piece of rebar physically shoved through a victims head takes the cake). If these fast inserted weapons hit CNS areas or can get into the deep vital areas, they are devastating. This is kind of like the handgun bullet debate. If you take a slash or cut wound on an extremity it will take awhile to bleed out. Human defense mechanisms do well with these injuries by constricting the capilleries and nerves dulling. However; once the heart or other vitals are deeply penetrated, its the end of the show. Keep in mind that with the exception of the throat the human body is well armored. Punctures get through this armor and into the areas that are truely important to body function. My favorite blade is the Strider WB, mainly because of its ability to penetrate deep.
 
Gimme a puncture weapon...one that Punches .45" holes..
smile.gif
...or .357" holes, or .308" holes...........

YeK
 
Yea, I prefer bullets, too. By the way in regards to the original post and the blood borne pathogens concern- These things do not do well outside the human body as they are very fragile viruses. They generally need internal contact to be transfered.

------------------
He who advances is sure of heaven-He who retreats of eternal damnation.
 
I guess it depends on the type of weapon involved. I would have different opinions for bowies compared to icepicks.

I'm not big into knife fighting but, puncture wounds, IMHO, aren't as effective as a good slash. Sure there is trauma involved, but, a puncture to the stomach area, for example, would not be as effective in stopping an attacker as well as a horizontal slash to the same area. A cut that opens the whole area and causes insides to become outsides.

------------------
If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon
 
I don`t care how big,strong,fat ect.. you are,a pick in your throat is gona put a damper on things.......THE END!
wink.gif

Allen, how long is the wait on a knife?
Take care

------------------
Jay
Life is like a box of chocolates,never know what your gona git!
 
Don't worry. If you deliver a fatal wound to one who wishes to cause you harm, It is most important to stop an attack. If you get some blood on you, you can wash it off. It is most important to survive the moment. All else is is secondary. Your legal considerations will be far more pressing than any theoretical medical considerations
 
Nyeti, odds are if you're involved in a self defensive action, you're gonna be breathing heavy with your mouth open. Would it be that hard for some blood to get in your mouth? Or even your eyes?? Can't hiv be transfered this way? A stabbing wound, especially with something as small diameter as an ice pick or even 1/4" spike would cause alot less bleeding outside the body than a slashing wound.

------------------
"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
L6Steel- Sure its possible, my point was more that it is a very minor concern. I truely believe that the deep puncture wounds are better for terminating threat (wide deep ones would be best), which is why I prefer these and techniques that deliver these types of wounds, not how much blood is going to be flowing.

------------------
He who advances is sure of heaven-He who retreats of eternal damnation.
 
Since our conversation about this last night I had some thoughts...

If you carry a knife it is for cutting, including if necessary, someone.

But how are you going to justify a poker to a LEO?

I still want the hat pin though....

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com
Coeur D'Alene, ID
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

An interesting business oppurtunity... http://www.geocities.com/selouss

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
One other consideration is the legal implications. If you use a knife in self-defense, your credibility and character are automatically called into question; more so than if you had used a gun.

Mas Ayoob covered a legal case where a 60 yo Filipino was assaulted by three young men. He had been trained in the martial arts, and pulled out two butterfly knives and defended himself. The many wounds (about 100, if I recall correctly) on the assailants stopped them after about a minute, but without any of them being killed.

Despite several witnesses corroborating his story that he was minding his own business and was the subject of an unprovoked assault by three much younger men, the case went to criminal trial. The judge believed that the man had been a victim, but couldn't believe that he could have inflicted so many wounds so quickly. So they brought two heavy punching bags into court, gave the old guy two butterfly knives, and he demonstrated that he could produce many more cuts than 100 in one minute!

My point is this; puncture wounds are more likely to result in death, but only after a considerable time. In a self defense situation, you wish to preserve your life by incapacitating the assailant as rapidly as possible. Slashes immobilize more quickly, and will be less likely to cause you considerable expense due to criminal and civil suit charges.

Walt
 
I thought I'd just give my 2 cents here. Someone better versed in history might be able to give a more accurate account, but I believe there was a very succesful Roman Centurion who told his men not to worry too much about how sharp the edges of their swords were, but to maintain a sharp point. And he trained them more in thrusting to kill.

And what about rapiers? I don't know how effective they were, but they were meant to kill by means of a puncture wound, and I would guess they were somewhat effective if they were used so much, especially by the courtiers. Afterall, aren't politicians the deadliest enemies around? They would have discarded the rapier if it didn't kill effectively.
smile.gif
 
As Dr. Welch said, the object of armed self-defense is to do enough damage to the assailant that either he will break contact, or you can break contact and safely retreat. The object, even with deadly force, is not to kill the guy, and if that's your purpose it turns self-defense into manslaughter, at least.

The martial artists here can speak with more authority, but the conventional wisdom I've heard is that stabbing requires getting past the limbs, one or more of which may be trying to damage you, to get to the body. Would the preferred tactic be to slash and step back, giving the other guy a chance to run off before he bleeds all over you?

I don't know that much about other jurisdictions, but California law specifically frowns upon concealed stabbing weapons. A concealed icepick is a felony, but there's no law against a concealed straight razor.


------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Wouldn't carrying a concealed "Stabbing" weapon be illegal wherever you go? It seems that the law of the land forbids the concealed carry of a dirk or dagger, both of which are dedicated stabbing type weapons.
I would rather slash if my feet failed me and I had to fight, as after getting some skin parted, the assailant decides whether he wants to stay and partake of more stitches and possible de-animation or beat a hasty retreat and live to hopefully take up a bed in the state pen. Stabbing, as was mentioned earlier, is gonna lead to a possible manslaughter or murder trial and the inevitable civil suit by the poor, helpless mugger's next of kin.
Happy days...



------------------
Why do they sterilize needles used for lethal injections?


 
I know a bit about ice picks since I used to build them into pens and pencils as a teenager. They are handy gadgets and I wish I had a 3.5" pick blade in my Adventurer SAK. While they can serve as weapons they are very limited.

Here's a couple case studies--

--A Marine is attacked by gang members. He fights off his assailants and goes home. There he dies. He has been stabbed in the heart by an ice pick. He doesn't even know he's been stabbed and it has no effect on the immediate outcome of the fight. Not exactly a big "stopper".

--A friend of mine borrows one of my ice pick pencils. He is assaulted by a gang. Finding an opening he rams the ice pick to the bone in one guys thigh and runs like hell. The escape was succesful. I never got the pencil back.

The "one quick stab" concept depends on a reasonably large wound. A professional duelist named Donald McBane would "shorten" his short sword by grabbing the blade with his left hand and using a two-handed "boars thrust" to the chest if he really needed to terminate a fight. He favored the small sword for the speed and reach it provided, but he often used a falchion when dualing for money. With that it was usually enough to break the other guy's arm without killing him.
 
Hello,

I think the leaglity issue is one of the main reasons that might limit a Puncture weapons use, Unless you think quick on your feet. Kinda like,

"Im sorry officer i was afraid for my life and all i had to defend myself was this 6 inch scribe i use for wood working"!! 8-)

Although in any lethal confrontation where a Taking of life was Justified according to Law, it is best to Say "i was in fear for my life", and then "I need my lawyer".

I for one, if confronted with a Attacking situation envloving a weapon or weapons am not going to Fight to just alliviate the threat. I am going to Kill my assaillant, as fast and as Efficiant as possible.

Some may call this alittle extreme, but if you attack me with the thought of Causing me Grave bodily injury or Death. Then you will DIE!! period.

my Father was a Deputy Sherriff in Kootnie County idaho for almost 13 yrs and the first thing he told me the Sheriff told his officers off the record, was that
"CORPSES dont Testify in Court"

Good words to live buy in my opinion.

Although if Confronted with an unarmed individual ,id be happy just to Go to the Ground(where 90% of it ends up anyway) and Choke my adversary out, or break enough
didgits to where he Submitted. I mean thats why i train and use to Teach JUDO in my Uncles DOJO.

but in all the above you better be Dang sure you were justified in whatever Force was used to protect yourself. this is Where alittle research into state law an federal law would come into play.

A puncture Weapon is a Great discrete
option if proper Targeting and Anatomical
targets are considered.

I never said it was just as a Stik and go type weapon, myself i practice with Puncture and edged weapons to Insert, and corkscrew it around a bit ,just to Disrupt Vital organ function.

Thrust and Corkscrew,,,thrust and Corkscrew, in a Eye socket,throat, liver,kidney, or other Soft target area this is a Devestating and usally life ending
senario. A puncture weapon also makes a great deep joint destruction tool, Spine,elbow,shoulder, Hip structures Ect...

Im working on a new Puncture weapon,i will post a pic to let ya see it when i get it done. I have made a Few that i call the "PROBE" which are bieng used buy a few deputys as a Gun retention Device.

not many assailants will continue to hold onto your holster when you sink a 4 to 6 inch Truncated ground Spring hardened Spike into there hand. 8-) They even had there badge numbers Engraved into the "PROBES".

not what i would have done ,for the sake of Sterility but then they wanted them engraved so i did it.

Anyway my .02 whatever its worth,

now back to my shop,got some people to send knives too..

Thanks, Take care, and have a great safe day.
Allen Blade
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top