The way I have read the laws in Calif, it specifies that you can carry a fixed blade of any length or design (except one's with brass knuckles) so long as it is suspended from the waist belt without being concealed. I would think that the push knives would fall under this catagorie, but being that I am not lawyer, I would appeciate anyone's interpretation of this law.
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PUSH KNIVES / DAGGERS IN CALIF
- Thread starter sigsauer
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Jim March
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There's nothing specifically verbotten about punch daggers, as you've noted.
What you've missed is that "openly suspended from the waist" is NOT the sole legal open carry option.
What happened was that PC12020 includes one specific example of what's legal, but that's not "exclusive". It's more of a "serving suggestion" as the frozen dinner package might say.
I know a guy who went all the way through a felony trial on exactly this point, and gained a jury aquittal after I prepped his public defender on this point
. The 6" dagger in question was completely open-strapped on the ankle, outside of both the pants material and boot.
In my case, the sheath for the one fixed blade I regularly carry can be adjusted up or down in ride height from the belt, so that 4" worth of grip is always below the jacket level regardless of which length jacket I've got with me. That should give you some idea how careful I am with this rule, when carrying a serious 9.5" blade "obvious fighter".
Jim
What you've missed is that "openly suspended from the waist" is NOT the sole legal open carry option.
What happened was that PC12020 includes one specific example of what's legal, but that's not "exclusive". It's more of a "serving suggestion" as the frozen dinner package might say.
I know a guy who went all the way through a felony trial on exactly this point, and gained a jury aquittal after I prepped his public defender on this point
In my case, the sheath for the one fixed blade I regularly carry can be adjusted up or down in ride height from the belt, so that 4" worth of grip is always below the jacket level regardless of which length jacket I've got with me. That should give you some idea how careful I am with this rule, when carrying a serious 9.5" blade "obvious fighter".
Jim
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That's right, though I didn't know it: push daggers are ok in CA so long as they're not concealed. Good news.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
- Joined
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- Messages
- 2,259
HEADS UP!! Check out 12020 c 7
Looks like push daggers might be covered here.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
Looks like push daggers might be covered here.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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This is a good find, but my personal NON-LAWYER opinion is that no, push daggers are still OK (open carry).
Here's why: under PC12020, "readily available stabbing implements" are definately legal openly carried. Right? That's a blanket statement. And a pushdagger is most definately a "readily available stabbing implement".
It's questionable whether or not it falls under the "metal knuckles" definition.
Since there's a disagreement between the definately-fits "readily available stabbing implement" and the might-fit "metal knuckles", the "definately-fits" definition seems to be the one an honest civilian trying to obey the law should follow.
Or put another way, the court should use the clearest definition based on what a person should be able to decipher. Under Calif law, all laws are to be written in English and understandable by the general citizenry. At least in theory. Mostly. (OK, it's a mess, what else is new
.)
But I'll tell you what, I may be able to get a genuine lawyer to look at this thread in the next couple of days. No guarantees.
Jason, no slur on you intended
. I'm very glad to see someone else willing to dig into California law in detail.
Jim
Here's why: under PC12020, "readily available stabbing implements" are definately legal openly carried. Right? That's a blanket statement. And a pushdagger is most definately a "readily available stabbing implement".
It's questionable whether or not it falls under the "metal knuckles" definition.
Since there's a disagreement between the definately-fits "readily available stabbing implement" and the might-fit "metal knuckles", the "definately-fits" definition seems to be the one an honest civilian trying to obey the law should follow.
Or put another way, the court should use the clearest definition based on what a person should be able to decipher. Under Calif law, all laws are to be written in English and understandable by the general citizenry. At least in theory. Mostly. (OK, it's a mess, what else is new
But I'll tell you what, I may be able to get a genuine lawyer to look at this thread in the next couple of days. No guarantees.
Jason, no slur on you intended
Jim
I think that you have to be a lawyer to understand the PC completely.
If your not able to get this looked at, I'll see if I can drop by the DA some time soon. Since I am getting married this week it might be a little while though.
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Jim, No slur taken. We're here to keep our asses out of jail (and still pack steel). If there's a mistake in someone's interpretation and someone ends up getting busted because of it - well that's bad for everyone. So the most accurate interpretation we can come up with is the goal for all of us. We're not trying to prove ourselves right in this forum (after all, it's not an ArcLite thread
). So if I'm wrong anywhere in this forum, I appreciate people calling it to my attention. We'll offend each other in the politics forum, here we cooperate.
Tryin to stay outta jail and still pack steel in CA,
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
Tryin to stay outta jail and still pack steel in CA,
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
bernard_levine
Platinum Member
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I was invited to comment on this thread by one of the participants.
If your goal is to stay out of jail, rule #1 is: Do not do things that give law enforcement probable cause to stop and search you. I would put wearing ANY fixed blade knife openly in an urban or suburban area of California high on this list. Doesn't matter what kind of knife it is, this will get you stopped and questioned. At that moment, the finer points of the law will not keep you from being arrested, though if you are lucky (and have a really skillful = expensive lawyer) they might keep you from getting convicted, when your case finally comes to trial. Furthermore, wearing a dagger openly in a California city could get you 5150'ed (locked up on a 72 hour psychiatric hold), and in my expert opinion, that would be entirely appropriate.
As to the argument that a push dagger is a form of metal knuckles, I would not want to bet my freedom against a judge or jury's buying that argument. As an expert witness on knives, I would not be willing to argue against it. A push dagger was designed to perform essentially the same function as a brass knuckles, only with enhanced lethality.
BRL...
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http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/links.htm
If your goal is to stay out of jail, rule #1 is: Do not do things that give law enforcement probable cause to stop and search you. I would put wearing ANY fixed blade knife openly in an urban or suburban area of California high on this list. Doesn't matter what kind of knife it is, this will get you stopped and questioned. At that moment, the finer points of the law will not keep you from being arrested, though if you are lucky (and have a really skillful = expensive lawyer) they might keep you from getting convicted, when your case finally comes to trial. Furthermore, wearing a dagger openly in a California city could get you 5150'ed (locked up on a 72 hour psychiatric hold), and in my expert opinion, that would be entirely appropriate.
As to the argument that a push dagger is a form of metal knuckles, I would not want to bet my freedom against a judge or jury's buying that argument. As an expert witness on knives, I would not be willing to argue against it. A push dagger was designed to perform essentially the same function as a brass knuckles, only with enhanced lethality.
BRL...
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http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/links.htm
I appreciate your concern, Bernard, but I think you're being overly cautious.
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I thought for sure that push daggers would be illegal in CA. When I looked at the law though, it seems that they aren't. "Belt buckle" knives are illegal, but that term doesn't have to include all push daggers.
Actually, it's been debated in the courts whether or not a push dagger can even be considered a "dirk or dagger". Some people argued that it wasn't a dagger because it didn't have a guard. In Conrad V. the court basically held that a push dagger was not a dirk or dagger. However, in the case below...
I don't know the exact history of CA knife law in the '90s, but eventually the definition of "dirk or dagger" was changed so it included the terms "knife or other instrument with or without a hand guard". It seems that the new definition settled the issue and push daggers are now considered to be daggers.
I have no idea if a push dagger could be considered to be metallic knuckles under CA law, but I agree that the definition of "metallic knuckles" is vague. A case that may or may not be of interest here is this one: click. It's a Colorado case that talks in depth about the difference between brass knuckles and a knife. However, the knife in that case was not a push dagger. They don't show a picture of it in the link, but I seem to remember that looked sort of like a Mark I Trench Knife, only much smaller.
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Cerulean
"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.
[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 12-09-2000).]
Actually, it's been debated in the courts whether or not a push dagger can even be considered a "dirk or dagger". Some people argued that it wasn't a dagger because it didn't have a guard. In Conrad V. the court basically held that a push dagger was not a dirk or dagger. However, in the case below...
(also see: People v. Wharton , 5 Cal.App.4th 72 [No. C009373. Third Dist. Apr 2, 1992.])
I don't know the exact history of CA knife law in the '90s, but eventually the definition of "dirk or dagger" was changed so it included the terms "knife or other instrument with or without a hand guard". It seems that the new definition settled the issue and push daggers are now considered to be daggers.
I have no idea if a push dagger could be considered to be metallic knuckles under CA law, but I agree that the definition of "metallic knuckles" is vague. A case that may or may not be of interest here is this one: click. It's a Colorado case that talks in depth about the difference between brass knuckles and a knife. However, the knife in that case was not a push dagger. They don't show a picture of it in the link, but I seem to remember that looked sort of like a Mark I Trench Knife, only much smaller.
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Cerulean
"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.
[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 12-09-2000).]
Jim March
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Cerulean, GOOD catch. What you've done here is prove pretty conclusively that a push dagger is now a "dirk or dagger", especially with the more recent "with or without a handguard" addition backing up that court case.
That's actually a good thing, as long as you understand it's an open-carry-only proposition.
Bernie: OK, dude, sorry but I'm gonna have to object here.
You're trying to tell me that open-carry of a knife in city limits should be grounds for involuntarily locking somebody up for a multi-day mental checkout?
You're SERIOUS?
Let's see now...for at least 15 years of the entire time I've been carrying large folders in Calif, belt-carry was required. And I carried BIG folders that way, including the 5.5" blade AlMar QSV/Jumbo. Are you questioning my sanity? I open-carry fixed blades fairly often, especially weekends or on trips, as do many others I know...never a problem, including during friendly contacts with cops. You're saying I'm nuts and should be locked up?
For about two years that I know of, your "California knife law page" didn't reflect the changes effective 1/1/97 and 1/1/98 that liberalized folder carry, first by declaring thumbstuds/holes/disks or whatever "blanket legal" in PC653k and then by allowing concealed carry of folders under PC12020.
Finally, just recently (12/6/00) Jason (Medusaoblongata) helped you re-do all that but before that, you were publishing CA's knife laws as of '96, so you were telling people it was illegal to conceal something like the Sifu around the work environment. Hence, many people might have significantly reduced their defensive hardware loadout to sheeple-friendly specs on the advice of "the knife expert".
Bernie, it's one thing to be against the concept of armed self defense. If that's your honest opinion, that's fine.
But it's quite another matter to advocate the automatic incarceration of those who feel otherwise while billing yourself as an "expert" in the subject, and then to publish "laws" which are long out of date and would cause people to disarm themselves out of fear of getting busted by rules that haven't been on the books for years.
I'm not impressed.
Jim March
That's actually a good thing, as long as you understand it's an open-carry-only proposition.
Bernie: OK, dude, sorry but I'm gonna have to object here.
You're trying to tell me that open-carry of a knife in city limits should be grounds for involuntarily locking somebody up for a multi-day mental checkout?
You're SERIOUS?
Let's see now...for at least 15 years of the entire time I've been carrying large folders in Calif, belt-carry was required. And I carried BIG folders that way, including the 5.5" blade AlMar QSV/Jumbo. Are you questioning my sanity? I open-carry fixed blades fairly often, especially weekends or on trips, as do many others I know...never a problem, including during friendly contacts with cops. You're saying I'm nuts and should be locked up?
For about two years that I know of, your "California knife law page" didn't reflect the changes effective 1/1/97 and 1/1/98 that liberalized folder carry, first by declaring thumbstuds/holes/disks or whatever "blanket legal" in PC653k and then by allowing concealed carry of folders under PC12020.
Finally, just recently (12/6/00) Jason (Medusaoblongata) helped you re-do all that but before that, you were publishing CA's knife laws as of '96, so you were telling people it was illegal to conceal something like the Sifu around the work environment. Hence, many people might have significantly reduced their defensive hardware loadout to sheeple-friendly specs on the advice of "the knife expert".
Bernie, it's one thing to be against the concept of armed self defense. If that's your honest opinion, that's fine.
But it's quite another matter to advocate the automatic incarceration of those who feel otherwise while billing yourself as an "expert" in the subject, and then to publish "laws" which are long out of date and would cause people to disarm themselves out of fear of getting busted by rules that haven't been on the books for years.
I'm not impressed.
Jim March
I don't think there's really any question.
------------------
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OK, I had that coming for leaving an opening like that
But the serious point remains, being involuntarily locked up would be extreme.
Jim
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Agreed.
Got a point there. If it'll be up to a judge or jury to decide whether the knife you're carrying fits a certain description, I wouldn't want to bet my freedom on being given the benefit of the doubt. But if we have court precedent to say that a push dagger is a "dirk or dagger", then it's legal to carry unconcealed.
As far as a 5150 goes, the only cases in which I've known of someone being 5150'd were attempted suicides, and one case of assault w/a deadly weapon. Now if someone's breaking the law in a manner which makes them a danger to themselves or others, and is showing signs of mental incompetence, I can see a 5150. But if someone, by openly carrying a fixed blade knife, or even an actual dagger, is obeying the law, I can't see how anyone would/could do anything about it at all, never mind locking them up involuntarily. I could see the issuer of the 5150 being taken to civil and criminal court for having someone locked up for nothing more than legally carrying a legal knife.
I can understand when conservative knife knuts advise us not to carry illegal knives, or legal knives illegally, or to bet our asses on the possible DA loophole or other grey areas - but advising us not to carry what we are legally entitled to carry? There's something wrong with that.
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
I appreciate everyone's comments. As I stated before I work in law enforcement so my reason for this post was not with the intention of carrying one of these knives. Instead it was to educate myself and pass the knowledge on.
Mr. Levine your comment about not giving law enforcement a reason is a very true one. I have never seen an individual brought up on a weapons charge without some other reason for the arrest. I do however find your comment about a person deserving to be 5150'd for carrying a knife like this in public unusual. Never have I seen a person get put under 5150 evaluation for a reason such as this. I make no claims of knowing everything though. Maybe you could take the time to give a more in depth reason as to why this would occur. If an individual was committing suicide with such a knife then I could understand. 5150 is a mental state, carrying a knife does not in my opinion prove a persons mental state. Maybe you could be so kind as to provide a name of a dept. that takes this standpoint on placing people in this position. I would be very interested in their reason.
I have to question why you think this is a proper course of action. Personally I have no problem with a person carrying a legal weapon, it's what they do with it that matters. I am not trying to be rude towards you. This topic was however from a legal stand point, and I find some of your opinions to be more from a personnel reasoning instead of a legal one.
Mr. Levine your comment about not giving law enforcement a reason is a very true one. I have never seen an individual brought up on a weapons charge without some other reason for the arrest. I do however find your comment about a person deserving to be 5150'd for carrying a knife like this in public unusual. Never have I seen a person get put under 5150 evaluation for a reason such as this. I make no claims of knowing everything though. Maybe you could take the time to give a more in depth reason as to why this would occur. If an individual was committing suicide with such a knife then I could understand. 5150 is a mental state, carrying a knife does not in my opinion prove a persons mental state. Maybe you could be so kind as to provide a name of a dept. that takes this standpoint on placing people in this position. I would be very interested in their reason.
I have to question why you think this is a proper course of action. Personally I have no problem with a person carrying a legal weapon, it's what they do with it that matters. I am not trying to be rude towards you. This topic was however from a legal stand point, and I find some of your opinions to be more from a personnel reasoning instead of a legal one.
Jim March
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Sigsaur, if you've been reading my posts on BF in general you'll know I always say things like "attitude matters in dealing with cops" and "for God's sake don't scare 'em"
.
When I was heading into a PD substation to be interviewed after witnessing an attack, I told the officer next to me that I had a legal knife at my belt, and that if he wanted to take possession of it while in the station I had no objection, I then showed him where it was without reaching for it, and allowed him to unsheath it. They handed it back to me on my way out the door without a qualm.
(Sidenote: the attack happened right near the station (as in about 200 yards away) so it wasn't like I was being "dragged downtown"; the substation was simply the easiest place to sit down and record what had happened.)
Part of the issue here is that people who view self-defense as somehow "evil" can't concieve of somebody acting sanely and politely in this fashion while deliberately armed with deadly force. It simply doesn't match the media's constant depiction of people of our type. So somebody with firm anti-weapon beliefs such as what Bernie seems to be demonstrating has a hard time even thinking about someone armed but NOT a candidate for a mental-health lockup.
The weapons I carry now, and the guns I'll carry once I score a CCW permit, will NOT be on my person for use against the police. In fact, the five million plus holders of permits to pack defensive firearms in the US have an unblemished record of ZERO shots fired in the direction of law enforcement and as a strong advocate of such permits, I'll be damned if I'll be the one to blow that.
Jim
When I was heading into a PD substation to be interviewed after witnessing an attack, I told the officer next to me that I had a legal knife at my belt, and that if he wanted to take possession of it while in the station I had no objection, I then showed him where it was without reaching for it, and allowed him to unsheath it. They handed it back to me on my way out the door without a qualm.
(Sidenote: the attack happened right near the station (as in about 200 yards away) so it wasn't like I was being "dragged downtown"; the substation was simply the easiest place to sit down and record what had happened.)
Part of the issue here is that people who view self-defense as somehow "evil" can't concieve of somebody acting sanely and politely in this fashion while deliberately armed with deadly force. It simply doesn't match the media's constant depiction of people of our type. So somebody with firm anti-weapon beliefs such as what Bernie seems to be demonstrating has a hard time even thinking about someone armed but NOT a candidate for a mental-health lockup.
The weapons I carry now, and the guns I'll carry once I score a CCW permit, will NOT be on my person for use against the police. In fact, the five million plus holders of permits to pack defensive firearms in the US have an unblemished record of ZERO shots fired in the direction of law enforcement and as a strong advocate of such permits, I'll be damned if I'll be the one to blow that.
Jim
Mr. March
I commend you and all others who take the initiative to protect themselves. My career in law enforcement started just over a year ago. It was never and will never be with the intention of suppressing the public.
Law Enforcement can not be everywhere all the time so it would be wrong of me or others to say that you should not be able to protect yourselves. In my opinion the only one hurt by the banning of weapons is the honest citizen. I don't know when it became clear for people to think that criminals obey these laws, instead only the honest citizen does, leaving them defenseless.
The officer that you gave your statement to had nothing wrong with your carrying a knife. I feel that most officers will react the same, their actions only change when criminalistic behavior is involved.
Personally whenever I book someone, I usually start discussing knives if they had one on them.
Not everyone who breaks the law is a bad person, everone can make a mistake, it's the severity of the mistake that can say something about them.
I commend you and all others who take the initiative to protect themselves. My career in law enforcement started just over a year ago. It was never and will never be with the intention of suppressing the public.
Law Enforcement can not be everywhere all the time so it would be wrong of me or others to say that you should not be able to protect yourselves. In my opinion the only one hurt by the banning of weapons is the honest citizen. I don't know when it became clear for people to think that criminals obey these laws, instead only the honest citizen does, leaving them defenseless.
The officer that you gave your statement to had nothing wrong with your carrying a knife. I feel that most officers will react the same, their actions only change when criminalistic behavior is involved.
Personally whenever I book someone, I usually start discussing knives if they had one on them.
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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If it's not clear yet, I don't mind being temporarily disarmed at a police station, or in the aftermath of a public fight while the cops are still sorting out WTF
In other words, I wasn't complaining about what the cops did in recording the aftermath of that fight
That's the part somebody like Sarah Brady (or Al Gore for that matter) simply can't believe.
Jim
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Jim,
I'm not sure if your reasoning here is right. Perhaps it could be clarified:
When the PC says is that it's illegal to carry one concealed, that doesn't mean it is legal to carry unconcealed. Now, what's not illegal is legal, but just because 12020 says that a dirk or dagger is illegal to conceal doesn't necessarily mean that any readily available stabbing implement is legal to carry openly. Follow?
Or, as an analogy, if there's a law that it's illegal to carry a loaded firearm concealed, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is legal to conceal an unloaded firearm, or to carry a loaded firearm openly. (I don't know firearm laws, I'm just inventing an analogy) It depends on other laws that might be out there.
One law wouldn't stop the other from applying.
Jim, you might remember when you were over here you picked up a replica of a punch dagger type thing that was decorating my wall. That's definitely a "dirk or dagger" but wouldn't it also fit the "metal knuckle" definition? This would make it illegal to conceal as a "dirk or dagger" and illegal to carry at all as "metal knuckles."
(For those others reading this, the item in question was a wall decoration; it was not an illegal, evil, un-PC "metal knuckle," but a harmless, innocuous object designed to appear to resemble one
)
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra
I'm not sure if your reasoning here is right. Perhaps it could be clarified:
When the PC says is that it's illegal to carry one concealed, that doesn't mean it is legal to carry unconcealed. Now, what's not illegal is legal, but just because 12020 says that a dirk or dagger is illegal to conceal doesn't necessarily mean that any readily available stabbing implement is legal to carry openly. Follow?
Or, as an analogy, if there's a law that it's illegal to carry a loaded firearm concealed, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is legal to conceal an unloaded firearm, or to carry a loaded firearm openly. (I don't know firearm laws, I'm just inventing an analogy) It depends on other laws that might be out there.
One law wouldn't stop the other from applying.
Jim, you might remember when you were over here you picked up a replica of a punch dagger type thing that was decorating my wall. That's definitely a "dirk or dagger" but wouldn't it also fit the "metal knuckle" definition? This would make it illegal to conceal as a "dirk or dagger" and illegal to carry at all as "metal knuckles."
(For those others reading this, the item in question was a wall decoration; it was not an illegal, evil, un-PC "metal knuckle," but a harmless, innocuous object designed to appear to resemble one
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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"
- Zarathustra