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Puukko Purist Questions

LostViking

LostViking

Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
3,427
Howdy traditional Knife folks.

I hope to set forth some questions without causing a rukkus. After some time here. I believe this can be done in this forum better than some others.

Nothing earth shattering really. I have/had some Scandi Knives. A Kellam Wolverine, that I regret selling. A Helle Harding that was a gift from the bride. So it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

A few Moras.

And an Aito. Which I grow more fond of with each passing day.

I missed a Brian Andews Puukko on another site this morning. Because I asked a question instead of saying "I'll take it" ya snooze, ya lose. Too bad it was a pretty one.

So with some background info set forth.

Here is my question. What constitutes a real actual Puukko?

In my searches recently. I read the opinion of a Finnish puukko/knife maker.

He suggests that Puukko originate in Finland. Next that they have a high grind. But not more than 75/25% Owing to the fact that a traditional Puukko is a knife designed to be a general purpose blade rather than a specific wood working tool.

He also mentioned that it should be Rhombic in cross section. Meaning a Diamond shaped blade narrow at the edge, widening to a point and than narrowing up again as it approaches the top of the blade.

There may have been more. But they were the points that stood out in my mind.

After missing the one this morning. I sort of have it in my head I will pursue what this gentleman described as a traditional puukko.

Or I may just suck it up and just use my Aito. While I doesn't meet the Rhombic requirement. It is from Finland and it is also a very cool knife it's own right.

The knife maker was keen to point out that. Just because it doesn't fir the classic definition. Doesn't mean it isn't a cool or otherwise great knife.

I figured this may be tha place to ask this. As most traditionals discussed here are governed by certain rules and descriptions that make them such.

Thoughts?
 
I'll take a stab at it. Puukkos are Finnish...period. They are related to other knives like the Swedish tollekniv, and the knives of Sweden and Denmark, but that is only to be expected because of the geographical proximity. But if you use the word puukko, I'll assume you're referring specifically to the Finnish tradition and not talking about Scandinavian knives in general.

What constitutes a real actual Puukko?

I think this is a good starting point.

So we say, that puukko-knife is a multipurpose tool and a temporary weapon. Puukko is small, alltogether about two palm widths long, and its length is divided almost in half between the blade and the handle. The less than one finger wide and quite thin blade, is straight from the backside and curved by the edge -- so the point is single edged. The blade of puukko is naturally made of steel, grindstoned and honed sharp. As was said, the handle of the puukko is as long as the blade, sometimes a little longer but almost never shorter. It is perfectly fit to fill a man's hand. The handle of puukko is naturally made of wood, usually birch, rarely curly birch -- and at the blade side end, there is a brass mounting. Often there is another mounting at the other end of the handle. The handles made of birch bark have always two mountings and the blade tang going through the handle is riveted. Puukko always has a sheath, and the sheath hangs from the carrier's belt --without sheath, the puukko is not complete.

Sakari Pälsi, Puukko p. 29-30 OTAVA 1955 (ISBN 951-1-15699-3)
Click to expand...
 
Kamagong,

Thank you!

I'd say that is pretty much spot on with what the knifemaker said. With the exception of the Rhombic shape and specific grind height.

Funny the description you posted mentions the sheath. I have always seen a sheath as an integral part of the knife system. The sheath on my Aito, and most Puukko sheaths I have seen, is an exercise in functional simplicity. No retainer strap, yet the knife doesn't fall out. Twist and it's available. The leather thong is again simple, yet works well. As I age, simple appeals to me more and more.

Recently I have opted to carry on the front left. Outside of my jacket on a Voyageur sash. I find it working well for me. Easier than rifling through your cold weather clothes. To find a belt worn knife.
 
I'd say the simplest incarnation of the puukko is the maasepän. This has a birch bark blade cover, useful for knives that won't be carried around, but obviously it's possible to have a leather sheath.
mar-2.jpg

mar-1.jpg


The rhombic section has been a very common feature on handforged puukko since the 17th century, but probably has been before as well. Its origin seems to come from smiths reforging feather files exploiting their existing geometry. Flat section blades are bit simpler and quicker to forge and tend to have less bite than rhombic ones. After having used rhombic puukkos since 2011 I always find flat section blades to give somehow less satisfaction in wood working.
 
I agree with the high grind, but not the rhombic shape. The rhombic cross section is only found in more expensive custom puukkos. As the smith forges the blade to shape, it is only natural for him to go the extra step and create what is the superior cutting geometry. Factories on the other hand work with blank stock for the blades. The geometry on something like an Ahti is a result of the manufacturing process and economic considerations.

As to the high grind, a quick glance comparing Finnish puukkos with those from Norway and Sweden shows a readily discernible difference. Factory or custom, a puukko's bevel comprises about 2/3 of a blade's width. Knives from Norway and Sweden have bevels that are 1/3 the width or so.

24488653015_0256437c2e_c.jpg

Finnish puukko in the middle, Swedish Mora at the bottom
 
Part of the draw for me to the Puukko is that higher grind. My Helle and other lower grind scandi blades tend to "hunt" in many things I cut. From potatoes, to cardboard, even some meat.

I like the idea of the general purpose blade.
 
Here's an excellent piece that was posted on these forums some time back: ‘Puukko’ is a Finnish term. It’s a derivative of ‘puu’ which means wood. A puukko is, first and foremost, a wood carving tool (we have a special term for that, ‘vuoleminen’, the root verb being ‘vuolla’, which comes close to whittling or wood carving, but denotes specifically the use of the blade for push-cuts, not slicing or slashing). Other ‘necessary’ uses of a puukko have to do with fishing and hunting, i.e., scaling, skinning, filleting, and other such tasks in preparing fish and game. Skilled users do about everything with a puukko, though. Once it was thought that a boy really doesn’t need other purchased toys; after he gets a puukko, he’ll make everything else with it. This is no joke! In the 50’s, schoolboys were (at some places) forbidden to use the puukko during wood-carving lessons, because they wouldn’t otherwise learn to use other tools, like planes, saws and chisels. Now the situation is, of course, quite different. Many Finns do not learn to use the puukko properly, though some kind of renaissance may be discernable here (there’s even a special ‘vuolukirja’, whittling book, by Joel Nokelainen 1996, but I think, only in Finnish).

The puukko has developed to remarkable functional simplicity during generations of hard, straightforward use by ordinary people. It is a compromise, a multi-tool, if you like, with nothing inessential. That explains some of its characteristic features. The blade, for instance, is typically only a hand width in length, or a bit less. A longer blade would hamper its performance in whittling, etc. control is better with a shorter one (for fine work, such as countersinking a hole, the puukko is grasped by the blade and the thumb may be used as a ‘backstop’). But because it is not a ‘pure’ wood carving tool, too short won’t do. Similar explanations could be given for the relatively pointy point (remember the hole?), the (usually) straight back (with absolutely no false-edge or swedge), the wedgelike grind, the relatively thin blade, the smooth guardless handle (often called the head), made traditionally of wood, mostly birch, or of birch bark, etc. There are, of course, exceptions, and specialization is taking place here, too. But most of the recent developments in puukko may be more market-driven than purely function. For instance, the recent proliferation of finger-guards comes solely from legislative (consumer protective) demands of USA. A traditional puukko does not need them, as it is not meant for stabbing (though they were used for that too by the ‘puukkojunkkarit’, a group of Finnish outlaws at the Kauhava region quite a few decades ago).

The carry system, in Finnish ‘tuppi’, is traditionally great. It’s not a quick-draw or concealment item or anything like that, but protects the puukko (and its owner) well, keeps it securely in place, does not hamper sitting, etc., and is aesthetically pleasing (the puukko is often called ‘tuppiroska’, sheath-litter, as it were and that could, I guess, reflect the high esteem that traditional makers have had for the sheath). But everyone does not know anymore how to make a proper tuppi (or does not have the time/financial means for that). About the grind. Not every puukko has a high saber grind (or ‘wide flat Scandinavian grind’, as somebody said), and not every puukko lacks a secondary bevel, though typically they do. Sharpening the whole flat sides every time would wear the blade down quickly (this actually happens – there are many puukkos around that resemble only faintly what they were as new), though for ‘vuoleminen’ you do need a very acute angle (about 15/30 degrees). In addition, there are (new) puukkos with a secondary grind as well as some with a convex grind (notably, the Lapinleuku, the traditional tool of reindeer-owners). About the thickness, yes, puukko blades tend to be relatively thin (and not very wide, either, and they do not have a full tang, which I have often grumbled myself). This relates again to its primary functions. It’s not convenient to ‘vuolla’ or to fillet with a thick blade, and you do not, typically, chop or pry with a puukko (for chopping we use the axe and for prying the other guy’s tools).
 
(for chopping we use the axe and for prying the other guy’s tools).

Classic right there!
 
This is a great thread. I'm enjoying reading it and learning a lot.

Alberta Ed said:
... Skilled users do about everything with a puukko, though. Once it was thought that a boy really doesn’t need other purchased toys; after he gets a puukko, he’ll make everything else with it. This is no joke! In the 50’s, schoolboys were (at some places) forbidden to use the puukko during wood-carving lessons, because they wouldn’t otherwise learn to use other tools, like planes, saws and chisels.
Click to expand...

I'd like to develop these skills. Does anyone know of resources—online, print, or video are all fine—for learning how to use a puukko to its full potential when one does not have an in-person mentor from which to learn?
 
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Frederick89 said:
The rhombic section has been a very common feature on handforged puukko since the 17th century, but probably has been before as well. Its origin seems to come from smiths reforging feather files exploiting their existing geometry. Flat section blades are bit simpler and quicker to forge and tend to have less bite than rhombic ones. After having used rhombic puukkos since 2011 I always find flat section blades to give somehow less satisfaction in wood working.
Click to expand...

in my limited experience playing with fire, hammers, and steel - hammering a swedge into the spine of a knife is a quick and easy way to straighten a blade.
when hammering the primary bevel into a piece of hot steel, the blade tends to curve upwards in direct proportion to how much you are stretching the metal along that primary bevel.
 
WhittlinAway said:
I'd like to develop these skills. Does anyone know of resources—online, print, or video are all fine—for learning how to use a puukko to its full potential when one does not have an in-person mentor from which to learn?
Click to expand...

I think it's one of those things where a poor folk learn to make the most of what they have. Growing up with a puukko in hand, you learn techniques to do a multitude of things.

Here's an old video with some puukko work.

http://vstr1.nebula.fi/?id=5790585-1252308059&w=640&h=476&fs=1&c=1&r=640&a=1&p=1
 
Everyone, thanks for the solid responses. Everything was well thought out and very educational.

Ironically, in the middle of my information quest. This popped up on my radar. I couldn't resist.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1460469-Puukko

It will be my first rhombic knife. And my first from a custom maker in Europe. I am beyond excited. I hope he doesn't mind if I use it.

I love curly birch and this one just spoke to me.

I'd like to see this thread continue.

I have spent a lot of time reading about the "Winter War" between Finland and Russia. The Puukko seems to have achieved almost lengendary status throughout that conflict.

A perfect example of how skills and knowledge can even the odds against better equipment, and overwhelming odds. In war or peace. Knowledge means a lot. The stories and photos from that era are,part of what peaked my interest in Puukkos.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback so far. It has been extremely informative and very interesting.
LV
 
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LostViking said:
Everyone, thanks for the solid responses. Everything was well thought out and very educational.

Ironically, in the middle of my information quest. This popped up on my radar. I couldn't resist.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1460469-Puukko

It will be my first rhombic knife. And my first from a custom maker in Europe. I am beyond excited. I hope he doesn't mind if I use it.

I love curly birch and this one just spoke to me.

I'd like to see this thread continue.

I have spent a lot of time reading about the "Winter War" between Finland and Russia. The Puukko seems to have achieved almost lengendary status throughout that conflict.

A perfect example of how skills and knowledge can even the odds against better equipment, and overwhelming odds. In war or peace. Knowledge means a lot. The stories and photos from that era are,part of what peaked my interest in Puukkos.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback so far. It has been extremely informative and very interesting.
LV
Click to expand...

Good Get! I'd say you will discover Puukkos first hand in style.

Ray
 
I have a fair number of scandi knives
I am not at all clear if Puukko means knife or is a specific design
Only straight flat spines with a full curved blade or the same with a dropped point?

I am posting a link to Brisa'a page of Lauri blades
I think all examples of the blades from 60 to 125 mm are Puukkos
After that they become Leukus
http://brisa.fi/knife-blades/lauri-carbon.html?dir=asc&limit=all&mode=list&order=price

Helle and Brusletto Norwegian knives with many of their blade shape are as much Puukko as the standard Finish blades like Ahti or Roselli
 
If one of the seven Master Puukko Makers of Finland make a knife and call it a "puukko," it is probably safe to call it a "puukko." Some of their puukot have a very slightly trailing point.

By the standard of what Finnish Master Puukko Makers call "puukko," some puukot have fullers, and some do not, and some puukot have rhombic blades and some do not.

If the bevels are ground on a wheel, they may be slightly concave.

Many knives are being called "puukkos" that are spear-points and drop-points. Like "tactical" and "scandi," some have found that "puukko" sells. So what was once "Kephart" or a "bushcraft" pattern is transformed into a "puukko." We have seen the same with "Bowie," haven't we?

I own Helle knives. I like them. Their main bevel is nowhere as high as a traditional puukko. Most of their handles are not typical puukkot handles.

Ditto for Brusletto.

If there is a demand for a product, someone will usually make it or make something and claim it is the desired product. So if there is a demand for what would be a puukko but with a guard, we get a "puukko" with a guard, and communication suffers.
 
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