Quenching tool steel (files)

F

forge the blade

Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
7
I am having a problem finding any info on quenching tool steel, haven't the money to buy any books for a few months and the library's have nothing to go by either :( . I have tried using Goddard's goop (40% lard 40% automatic transmission fluid 20% paraffin) but the blade will get small chips just from running your fingernail on it or stropping! Did I use the wrong quench or is it a water quench steel? help would be appreciated! :o
 
Personally, I have had the best results quenching tool steel either by using water or used 10W30or 40 motor oil
 
forge the blade said:
I am having a problem finding any info on quenching tool steel, haven't the money to buy any books for a few months and the library's have nothing to go by either :( . I have tried using Goddard's goop (40% lard 40% automatic transmission fluid 20% paraffin) but the blade will get small chips just from running your fingernail on it or stropping! Did I use the wrong quench or is it a water quench steel? help would be appreciated! :o
Click to expand...

There's a few issues here.

First, you will get more info in the Shop Talk section.

Second, Goddard's Goop is BS
Quench oils are formulated to match the steel type
All are liquid oils

Even Canola oil is much better, as long as you match the steel to the oil.


What steel are you using ?
a file ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/907667-How-to-Make-a-Knife-From-a-File



I'm going to hit you with a long cut and paste reply.
It includes a book list with some downloadable books.
Once you have the book titles and authors, your library can get books from all across the country - usually at no charge


Next, heat treatment is a process with several steps.
It sounds as if you have hardened, but not tempered.

Your next question is how to do that, but it depends on the steel type you are using.
 
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I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions on how to make a knife. I'm sure it will help you too. How to Instructions for making a Knife.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V23

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

How to post a photo on BF
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.
Search the work "tink" for more info


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html



VFD Variable Speed made simple

Simplest, and cheapest are hardly ever the same.

Yes you can get cheaper NEMA 1 VFD’s and build your own enclosure
Or you may find them cheaper at other retaillers, but watch shipping.

Wayne Coe
http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Motors___VFDs.html

VFD-
KBAC-27D

Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C, RPM is up to you.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG ad NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $80 for shipping to Canada I save $$$ on a used motor.


Wiring kit
Wiring kit - for 115v VFD includes 8' 14 gage molded cord, 2' 4 conductor wire for from VFD to motor, cable glands, wire nuts and grounding connectors $45.00 including shipping CONUS.


The 1.5 HP combination is the most common setup, as reported by Rob Frink in some thread somewhere
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.

There are cheaper VFD units like the TECO, but the only VFD I have found that will run a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC27D

It is NEMA4, sealed from metal dust that can smoke the unit.
It has good community and company support, like the manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and adjustment settings on Rob Frink’s website.

I like the fact that I can buy it from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reported being able to run a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is dead simple-Here's how
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html




Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V23 Feb 6, 2012
Added VFD’s made simple

Countavatar.jpg
 
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It's widely considered that files are 1095

Some people have had files tested, some have had contact with the tech service of file companies.

That's only valid for good made is USA files like Nicholson and Simonds Black Diamonds

There are file sor sale that are made from cheap steel that is case hardened & the cheap files from harbour freight may be just those.



In the link on the first post, there is a how to make a knife from a file, but if you read the rest of the links, you will see 1095 is tricky to use and if you buy a bar of 1084 from Aldo, you will have much more success.

It's a lot of work to hand finish a knife & the price of good steel is so small compared to the work involved, or a nice piece of wood for handles.

go introduce yourself in Shop Talk, and see what happens.
 
12345678910 said:
There are file sor sale that are made from cheap steel that is case hardened & the cheap files from harbour freight may be just those.
Click to expand...

Files are not case hardened, NONE of them are. Except possibly some needle files. I wish people would stop spreading this ridiculous rumor.
This is the composition for HFs' files
C:1.3 | Mn: 0.34 | P:0.015 | S:0.009 | Si:0.24 | Cu:0.01 | Cr:0.62 | Mo:0.005 | Ni:0.02 | Sn: 0.003 | V: - | Nb:0.010
Courtesy of Matt Bower.
 
Many rasps are case hardened, as are some small files. Rasps are often called "files" in threads about making a "File Knife".

I suspect that the OP has not tempered his blades.

Filling out his profile may help this chap.
 
I tempered it in a toaster oven at 375 Fahrenheit for an hour but was that to much or to little ?

Also thank you all for the info so far!
 
Good point.

The edge will be heavily decarbed, and need to be ground back a bit. Also, if the edge is too thin, it can warp in the quench.

I regularly get someone ask me why their blade isn't hard, or won't stay sharp. After hearing their HT regime, I tell them to grind the edge back about 1/16" and then re-sharpen the bevels.
When they do, suddenly there are bright sparks and hard steel. The hard edge was buried under decarbed steel caused by too sharp an edge before HT (usually combined with inaccurate HT temps).
 
Thank you everyone I have tried all your suggestions and found out my problems, first I forgot about the edge thing (big time brain fart on my part). Second my dumb@$$ was using a slow oil quench on 10 series steel instead of a fast one :P , I just make file knives as commodities like railroad spike knives but I still want them to be useful unlike rail road spike knifes lol.
I have found that a file knife with at least a nickle thick edge that is then fully heated to what I call a "golden straw" color (cant pinpoint the exact heat don't have a pyrometer) and quenched in very briny close to boiling hot water produces a nicely quenched piece of steel that is not brittle after tempering but will hold a very good edge none the less special thanks to bladsmth on the tempering advice!
 
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