Question about grain direction.

M

Mattz1983

Joined
Apr 29, 2020
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67
Wondering if anyone has done strength testing on aeb-l cut with and against the grain? How much does this matter on hot rolled aeb-l?
 
We haven't tested AEB-L in the transverse direction, but every other steel tested shows at least some difference between orientation. Even high toughness steels like Z-Tuff.
 
Larrin said:
We haven't tested AEB-L in the transverse direction, but every other steel tested shows at least some difference between orientation. Even high toughness steels like Z-Tuff.
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I saw where a maker was cutting against the grain on his which was reducing warping. Makes me curious!
 
What I have wondered is if edge stability is stronger with the grain running perpendicular to it.
 
I was reading on some steel metallurgy sites talking about cutting edge in industrial applications, they seem to think using a transverse edge is beneficial. Some of the knife guys say its to thin to matter.

Just wanna throw this out there also, alpha knife supply said all their aside from niagara is cross rolled.
 
I think with today’s steels grain direction has little if any noticeable affect on our uses. If grain direction is the determining factor between a blade surviving or failing then the blade was way under designed. Not saying grain direction does not affect toughness as it does and can be tested and seen but how much of that translates to real world uses with the steel we use. A knife that’s forged and has the grain flowing along the edge would be tougher as well but blades that are cut to shape are not questioned. So I think it’s a topic that likes to get nitpicked to death.

but I would very much like to see edge retention tests on grain ran the other direction.
 
For custom knifemakers that argue over 5 minutes of austenitizing time, or that not using cryo makes a knife bad, etc., saying that grain direction doesn’t matter is ridiculous. Make the knife correctly. Don’t handicap it.
 
Larrin said:
For custom knifemakers that argue over 5 minutes of austenitizing time, or that not using cryo makes a knife bad, etc., saying that grain direction doesn’t matter is ridiculous. Make the knife correctly. Don’t handicap it.
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What got me started was someone more experienced than me telling me I was about to cut my blades the wrong direction, an evening of debate later and I learn that aks steel is all cross rolled besides the niagara steel, sooo maybe smarty pants just need to keep their mouths shut or ask where ppl got the steel before opening up a rabbit hole?!

Also, were just chatting about the science to it, that shouldn't be an issue with anyone!
 
The steel is not 50:50 cross-rolled. It has an orientation to it and the difference in toughness can be up to 50%. Even in high toughness, “cross rolled” PM steels.
 
Larrin said:
For custom knifemakers that argue over 5 minutes of austenitizing time, or that not using cryo makes a knife bad, etc., saying that grain direction doesn’t matter is ridiculous. Make the knife correctly. Don’t
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Larrin said:
The steel is not 50:50 cross-rolled. It has an orientation to it and the difference in toughness can be up to 50%. Even in high toughness, “cross rolled” PM steels.
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Larrin said:
The steel is not 50:50 cross-rolled. It has an orientation to it and the difference in toughness can be up to 50%. Even in high toughness, “cross rolled” PM steels.
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So for every 12 x 24 piece of aeb-l I get I need to etch and get a microscope bc the supplier says its cross rolled and has no grain direction?
 
nsm said:
We cross roll (Typically rotated 90 degrees 2 to 3 times during the rolling process) titanium and aerospace alloys all of the time to meet tensile and bend test requirements. We could do the same for CPM if we knew it made a measurable difference. The CPM billets we buy from Crucible are 11 to 14" wide and 4 to 5 " thick when they start out and we roll them in multiple directions to get them out to 26 to 28 inches wide. It's kind of like rolling dough, except it's really hot, a lot harder and our rolling pins are 24 inches in diameter and weigh 6 tons each.:) Once they get to .500" thick we stop rolling, anneal the plate, shotblast to clean the surface and then finish roll in one direction to get the length and thickness. The final roll direction for CPM is along the 36 " dimension. I can assure you, our steel gets rolled in more directions than just about anyone else in the world.



Bob Shabala
President
Niagara Specialty Metals
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Mattz1983 said:
What got me started was someone more experienced than me telling me I was about to cut my blades the wrong direction, an evening of debate later and I learn that aks steel is all cross rolled besides the niagara steel, sooo maybe smarty pants just need to keep their mouths shut or ask where ppl got the steel before opening up a rabbit hole?!

Also, were just chatting about the science to it, that shouldn't be an issue with anyone!
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Not sure where you’re getting your information from, but everything rolled at Niagara Specialty Metals @nsm is cross-rolled.


And yes, you should be paying attention to the direction your sheet was rolled in.
 
Matthew Gregory said:
Not sure where you’re getting your information from, but everything rolled at Niagara Specialty Metals @nsm is cross-rolled.


And yes, you should be paying attention to the direction your sheet was rolled in.
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I got my info from a post on here where aks said that in a comment. Lol! Maybe things have changed?
 
pJNLCt1
https://ibb.co/pJNLCt1
 
Larrin said:
The steel is not 50:50 cross-rolled. It has an orientation to it and the difference in toughness can be up to 50%. Even in high toughness, “cross rolled” PM steels.
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Last time I bought a piece of steel (IT WASN’T FROM AKS!!!) the seller also told me “it’s cross rolled”, but Haakonsen once told me there’s a final direction in which the steel is rolled, we can’t roll the steel in every direction forever! So now I take stock removal blades with a bit of caution, because if even the steel supplier doesn’t know the rolling direction of the steel...
 
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hugofeynman said:
Last time I bought a piece of steel (IT WASN’T FROM AKS!!!) the seller also told me “it’s cross rolled”, but Haakonsen once told me there’s a final direction in which the steel is rolled, we can’t roll the steel in every direction forever! So now I take stock removal blades with a bit of caution, because if even the steel supplier doesn’t know the rolling direction of the steel...
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This is my first piece of steel wider than 2 or 2.5 inches, so Ive not ran in to this problem to solve yet.

Do you etch a corner and try to do a macro picture of the grain?

I dont have any visible rolling marks, no rounded edges, all four sides were cut. There is some stripes painted on the back would the direction of that be a clue
 
Mattz1983 said:
This is my first piece of steel wider than 2 or 2.5 inches, so Ive not ran in to this problem to solve yet.

Do you etch a corner and try to do a macro picture of the grain?

I dont have any visible rolling marks, no rounded edges, all four sides were cut. There is some stripes painted on the back would the direction of that be a clue
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I’m sorry, I’m not a maker, just a guy who sometimes buy pieces of steel and send to some of his regular makers.;)
 
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