Question on blade peppering

B

Barry E Harris

Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
136
When I get a knife in the mail the first thing I do is thoroughly wipe down the blade with a clean oily rag and then thoroughly oil the blade, usually with honing oil. I then put the knife in my ready room (man cave) which is a spare bed room. This room utilizes the same central air system as the rest of the house, although it probably does not get as much circulation since the door is usually closed. We don't open our windows at any point during the year. Outside humidity pushes 85%+ most of the year and that moist air coming into the house is bad for the house, bad for guns, bad for knives, bad for just about everything. On the knives that are really MIB I have bought I am not getting any blade peppering whatsoever. On the knives that have been cleaned (presumably with metal polish); but don't look to ever have been pitted, I am not getting any blade peppering whatsoever. However, on knives that show evidence that they may have had some light pitting before cleaning, I am seeing the peppering emerge like a rash, even with the blade covered in oil. I have experimented with cleaning old rusty, peppered, and pitted users, as well. It seems that even when I get that blade bright and shiny and immediately cover it with oil, I am getting blade peppering within 24-48 hours wherever the worst peppering or pitting was before. This raises two questions.

1) I thought that peppering was a form of oxidation and I am intrigued as to why this can occur when the oil is preventing the oxygen from getting to the blade; am I correct in my assumption that peppering is a form of oxidation?

2) Is there a process INTERNAL to the metal that begins once peppering starts; in other words, is this pretty much an irreversible process other than by putting a patina on?

3) Is what I am experiencing normal or am I doing something wrong?
 
Barry I can't answer your question on oxidation but I can say you must have a humidity problem in your house.I don't know where you live or if you have central air but if you do it should be keeping your humidity around 40 to 50 percent.If it's not someone needs to check it.You can find a cheap meter to check it at either Lowes or Home Depot.You might want to leave the door to your room cracked to increase air flow.Arnold
 
Hi Barry and Arnold.
I think Arnolds suggestion is best but here are some other suggestions that may also help.

I am a little bit obsessive with how clean my knives are i found that using an oily rag or methylated spirits (metho) did not really clean them properly. I was really concerned that if I used anything that was stronger than metho it may leave some permanent residue behind which could effect blade etch or make it corrode even if not straight away.

As a result I used mild soap with warm water. At least this way I could be sure there would be no residue left once I had cleaned it. I would rub it softly dry with tissue paper to remove ALL soap. This worked so well that I pulled out my other knives and started looking over them carefully. I am convinced now after doing quite few that most knives even mint factory ones come with muck and finger marks and possibly other byproducts of the manafacturing process that are not easily seen with the naked eye. As a result I now give all my knives especially the blades a cafeful clean with dishwashing or hand soap and it often improves them dramatically.

Anything even slightly corrosive on the surface of blade (finger marks seen or unseen) even if covered with oil wil have some detrimental effect multimplied by a factor of the duration it is left on knife.

I really dont know if this is your problem but it could be contributing although I suspect it is more likely due to the high humidity. Often when a knife is coated with oil it will not coat but congeals and beads in groups like a care windscreen leaving most of knife without oil. The smoother the finish the greater the beading will be. I think applying it with a rag helps and possibly also using correct oil. I havent yet worked out away around this problem appart from perhaps rapping all metal parts tightly in oily rag.

I wish that a manafacturere would produce a neutral cure wax that could be polished over whole knife to protect it and be easily remove later if desired. I think there are gun oils that can be sprayed on and dry on the surface but I have never tried these.

Alternatively loosely rap or display your knives with some type of absorbant paper backing and see if thats helps.

be careful if you decide to use anything but mild hand soap on knife, you can use stronger dishwashing liquid as I have done many times but I cant speak for all the different brands, also make sure every last trace of water and soap is removed from knife. For this reason the minimum of soap and water to ensure you only get it on part you want to clean especially important with folding knives. NEVER do it on any timber part on knife unless you wipe of water almost immediatley (at own risk) as coating on timber is not completely moisture proof and will stain if it gets through coating.

Knife manafacturers have the same problem in order to protect the finish they used to put packing grease on the carbon steel blades to protect from rust (if oil stayed on they would have used oil) only problem is the grease would set hard and was often slightly corrosive this would eventually destroy the appearance of the knife even if removed latter.

I would suggest if your still keen and you really want to find out a better way of protecting them try and find a forum for Ancient Traditional Japanese Swords and ask how they protect there swords. They are the experts on this. I recal many years ago i had a friend who purchased a very old expensive sword and i think he said he had been told to use a special kind of waxy substance on it.

Hope this helps
Regards Tim
 
I put a humidity meter in the room since my first post. Hovering around 42% to 43% which is actually just a little low for central HVAC. Its real cluttered in that room (lots of guns, ammo, pack, knives, etc.). As soon as I get it a little more organized I'll put a room de-humidifier in there. I have one in my enclosed garage which is also heated and cooled. The dehumidifiers really work. They are pretty cheap and don't require any special installation; you just plug them in. I am NOT getting peppering on all my carbon steel knives; just those that obviously had heavy peppering and some pitting and were cleaned by the seller just prior to selling. Knives that are mint or even users that have never been pitted or peppered are NOT developing any peppering. This makes me wonder if once the peppering process starts that there is no way to stop it other than applying a patina. I would echo what Timstools said about not going beyond mild hand soap; some detergents (like Dawn) will give your knife the most even patina you have ever seen. My wife was once washing some bloody knives for me; one of the kids woke up and starting crying; she went to tend to the child and left the knives in the sink in soapy Dawn water. The stainless knives were unscathed but the carbon steel knife developed a dark blue patina. I also had the same thing happen with a carbon steel bee hive tool once. If I am going to store a knife for a while I use a 1/2 stength cosmoline that Rig makes. That stuff definitely stays where you put; but, its not quite as onerous to work with as full strength cosmoline. You can even heat the Rig product in a double boiler and dip knives, gun parts, etc. in it to get an even coating. It gels back up as soon as it cools.
 
Goos ideas guys. Remember that steel is porous and the surface might still have moisture on it under the oil. WIping a knife dry is good but... it doesn't get all the moisture off/out of the steel. Room temperature oil might just seal that moisture in. Thoroughly dry and warm the metal. then rub in warm oil. You should be able to exclude the moisture and oxygen that causes oxidation to reappear. Consider putting the most succeptable knives in a container like a gun safe with a dessicant can or electric desicant rod made for fine guns.

Michael

PS- and for goodness sakes weed out those celluloid knives for seperate storage!
 
Cell is very corrosive. And combustable. If you are over thirty, I am sure you remember sitting in a movie and watching the film burn when the projector stopped turning. I gives off corrosive gas that eats metal too. one of the components is camphor.

Michael
 
Codger brings up a good point. I once had a rust problem to the point that even chromed tools were rusting and any carbon tools looked liked they were exposed to salt water. It turned out that there was some acid in a container for finishing brick from a chimney we built and the fumes that escaped was attacking the steel. I would oil (even soak in oil) the tools next week bang rust big time. It took awhile to find this out; by looking at what was rusted lightly to rust heavily I found the container in the middle. Just something to look at.
 
hi, i used to own a camillus fishermans luck toothpick that had peppering , shined it up ,couple days later same rust and peppering would come back shined it back up , it would come back again in a few days, finally got so fed up with the knife this was back in the early 90s, that i disposed of it, wish now i had it back but always wondered why this knife would constantly start rusting right after i cleaned it.
 
G'Day, I've often wondered if its contagious.If you have a knife amongst the others that continually turns pepperish then black can it affect the others in the same drawer. I'm referring particularly to high carbon steel blades.I have a 171UH that every time I take it out it will have black on the tip and then I rub with metal cleaner more or less remove it then oil it and it will be black again next time I inspect and several others started to pepper.I have dozens of those moisture removing packets spread throughout all the drawers of my knife cabinets. I suspect this particular 171UH was cleaned/buffed prior to my original purchase and it just keeps coming back like a cancer....very frustrating.... Good topic this one.....Hoo Roo
 
Hey Guys, my best defence is to keep silica gel packets in every drawer, display, box, etc. I learned this the hard way with my cartridge collection. The exposed lead bullets began turning to powder. I cleaned them with spray furniture polish (wax is recommended by the pro's) and now keep LOTS of silica gel packets everywhere. The soft eye-glass cleaner/wax is great to protect exposed steel also, but you have to start off with a CLEAN surface. My 7 cents worth (inflation).
Jerry
 
Guys good posts thanks
The stainless knives were unscathed but the carbon steel knife developed a dark blue patina
Click to expand...

Thanks barry I have not tried this with carbon steel knives, I assumed a strong substance like soap may be ok on them if removed immediately, it may not be ???? I have had bad stains appear on highly polished carbon steel in less than 24 hours just from touching them.
Cheers Tim
 
I've received a few knives wrapped in brown paper that's treated with volatile corrosion inhibitors (VCI). It's made by a company called Daubert VCI, Inc out of Burr Ridge, ILL.. I'm not sure if the average Joe can purchase this stuff, or how healthy it is, but I might look into it to see what benefits there are. Perhaps it's a vailable in some knife makers supply catalogs.
Eric
 
Something else to think about.Years ago I supervised a warehouse for a company that sold stainless pipe and tubing.The s/s had to be segregated from any carbon steel and the piperacks had to be rubber lined so the stainless didn't touch the steel.If it did it would rust where it had touched the steel.Something about free ions in the steel.Just a thought for those of you storing c/s and s/s together in the same drawer.Arnold
 
Arnold, good info.

Can anyone clarify Codger's cryptic remark regarding segregating celluloid handled knives?

This whole thread reinforces to me why I like user knives soaked in vinegar. A man could get plumb nervous about what that carbon steel is doing down the hall. This is beginning to sound a lot like trying to live with a woman with tendencies to wander.
 
Barry,
Celluloid is in a constant state of decomposition, albeit slow. As it does it gives off volatile gases that will decompose the steel. Causes some very nasty pitting, especially in the area where the blade stands proud of the knife handle (the nail nick area to be specific), and can affect nearby knives, especially in a confined, non-ventilated area.It also decomposes at different rates, so one knife might be in existance fifity years without any noticeable effects, while another will look like it's been in salt water for it's entire life.The cell will also become brittle, yellow, and shrink in some cases. I've got four celluloid knives that are still in great condition, but I keep them freshly polished, oiled, and in an open area where the air is free to circulate. Like Barry said, they also keep me somewhat nervous, one in particular is a beautiful easy open jack from the Herman Williams collection off the wall, and I really don't want to see anything happen to it. I'm not sure how prevalent this is, I've seen quite a few absolutely pristine cell knives, but I wouldn't want to take any chances.
Eric
 
Barry,
There is a long thread at AAPK on celluloid handles. Mostly there great pics of celluloid knives form guy's collections, but amongst the posts was quite a bit of discussion about celluloid and the breakdown.

Not to take away from BF, but it is an informative thread. I often refer to BF at AAPK and no one seems to have a problem with it. I know a lot of us frequent both forums and other forums as well.

Here is the link:
http://allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/viewtopic.php?t=1763&start=0

Dale
 
No problem here Dale, that's excellent information!
 
Has anyone tried silicon spray. There was a listing on ebay about six months ago where a seller was selling and old Schrade Walden 165 carbon steel knife. It was mint and a factory experiment with silicon coating on blade. Only problem is how to you get it off easily if you ever want to remove it??? Could be messy??
I used a special clear coating on a large brass church bell that I removed the rough casting from to a high polish, wouldnt use it on a knife though??
 
Interesting question, Timstools. I have used food grade silicon spray and grease on honey extractors and meat grinders to protect the metal from corrosion during storage. I never thought about using it on knives; but, its an idea worth exploring. I don't know why it wouldn't work. We mainly use it on the honey extractors and meat grinders because it doesn't have to be removed before use. In fact, food grade silicon grease is used to lubricate moving parts in honey extractors and meat grinders for this very reason. I really don't know if it would protect any better than cosmoline or a similar substance.
 
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