Question regarding definition of "switchblade" California Penal Code

[jackalope1899]

PENAL CODE - PEN​ 17235. As used in this part, “switchblade knife” means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. “Switchblade knife” does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position. (Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. (SB 1080) Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711.)

Looking at the line in bold, regarding a detent or mechanism, providing resistance that biases a blade back toward a closed position.
What if you had something similar to an OTF mechanism, but instead of the blade locking in the open position, the blade retracted, as soon as you removed your finger from the firing stud?

In other words, forward pressure on the firing stud springs the blade out, but constant forward pressure on the switch is required to keep the blade in the open position. As soon as pressure is removed from the firing stud/switch, the blade automatically retracts. Sort of like a "dead man's switch". As soon as pressure on the switch is removed, the blade retracts automatically.

Would this fulfill the obligation required for the knife to not be a switchblade, under the code?

 

[killgar]

An interesting question. I don't believe I've ever seen such a knife (one that springs open but that requires constant effort to keep the knife "open"), nor have I ever seen any case law that refers to such a knife.

Although I think it's an interesting question, my opinion on this subject is worthless. Because what really matters is how any given LEO, prosecutor, or jury would look upon such a knife when considering the statute you provided. And then there's whatever an appeals court would think of the knife, and if it meets the definition of a "switchblade", if a person were convicted for possessing it.

Taking all that into consideration, I'm reminded of something a previous attorney of mine used to tell me regarding California's knife laws when I would ask "Is there any case law on that?"

And sometimes he would respond- "No. Do YOU want to become the case law?".

My answer to that was always a definite "NO".

Another piece of advice he used to give me is "Never get cute with the criminal justice system". In other words- don't think you're going to trick or outsmart the law with clever attempts to get around the exact wording of the statutes. Because how YOU look upon a knife and interpret the statutes of the law, and how the criminal justice system looks upon your knife and interprets the law, may be VERY different. And in the end it's THE SYSTEM's interpretation that matters. I'm not saying you're trying to get cute with the law, I'm just passing on the advice.

I don't know if you're just asking a hypothetical question, or if you own such a knife, or are interested in acquiring one, or building one, but my advice would be- When in doubt, don't do it. Don't push your luck. If YOU become the case law, even if you win, you will still lose.

I also can't help but question the practicality of a knife that requires constant effort to keep it open.

 

[Fonedork]

PENAL CODE - PEN​ 17235. As used in this part, “switchblade knife” means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. “Switchblade knife” does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position. (Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. (SB 1080) Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711.)

Looking at the line in bold, regarding a detent or mechanism, providing resistance that biases a blade back toward a closed position.
What if you had something similar to an OTF mechanism, but instead of the blade locking in the open position, the blade retracted, as soon as you removed your finger from the firing stud?

In other words, forward pressure on the firing stud springs the blade out, but constant forward pressure on the switch is required to keep the blade in the open position. As soon as pressure is removed from the firing stud/switch, the blade automatically retracts. Sort of like a "dead man's switch". As soon as pressure on the switch is removed, the blade retracts automatically.

Would this fulfill the obligation required for the knife to not be a switchblade, under the code?

No

 

[jackalope1899]

I also can't help but question the practicality of a knife that requires constant effort to keep it open.

 

[jackalope1899]

No

-5 points for not showing your work.

 

[killgar]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of those. I've used regular utility knives frequently pretty much all my life, including in shipping and construction work, and I never once cut myself with one. Never saw anyone else cut themselves either. I think if a person actually needs one of those "safety" knives in order to not cut themselves, then they probably couldn't be trusted with ANY knife, or any other tool for that matter, and I wouldn't want them on my job site.

In my opinion some "tools" are a solution looking for a problem. Or they're designed for the "lowest denominator", like people who are too inept to use a basic cutting tool without cutting themselves.

Are those the type of item you were referring to in your original post? Because you specifically stated "forward pressure on the firing stud springs the blade out", and I didn't see any in that video that meets that description.

The knife below has been in my family for three generations now. No safety shroud, not even a retractable blade. I guess I'm just an old-fashioned risk-taker. Or, maybe I'm just careful with cutting tools, and competent .

 

[jackalope1899]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of those. I've used regular utility knives frequently pretty much all my life, including in shipping and construction work, and I never once cut myself with one. Never saw anyone else cut themselves either. I think if a person actually needs one of those "safety" knives in order to not cut themselves, then they probably couldn't be trusted with ANY knife, or any other tool for that matter, and I wouldn't want them on my job site.

In my opinion some "tools" are a solution looking for a problem. Or they're designed for the "lowest denominator", like people who are too inept to use a basic cutting tool without cutting themselves.

Are those the type of item you were referring to in your original post? Because you specifically stated "forward pressure on the firing stud springs the blade out", and I didn't see any in that video that meets that description.

The knife below has been in my family for three generations now. No safety shroud, not even a retractable blade. I guess I'm just an old-fashioned risk-taker. Or, maybe I'm just careful with cutting tools, and competent .

My example of the utility knives, was just to show that they exist -since you'd stated you've never seen one.
The purpose of my original question, was simply to know if such a mechanism would fulfil the requirement within California law, for it not to be considered a switch blade, since it would be biased to closing the blade, without direct interaction from the user.

Since I live in a state that denies full sized OTF automatic knives to its citizens, the ultimate practicality of the design comes from making the tool/OTF knife available to a population that, otherwise, would not be able to have it to begin with.

In California, in order to use an Airsoft gun in the woods or at an Airsoft park, the tip of the gun's barrel must be painted orange. Does this provide any real practical value to the gun's operator? No, but it's one of the legal hoops we must jump through, in order to enjoy an Airsoft competition, at all.

I'm glad to see you continue to use a tool that was handed down through your family.
I hope you don't live in California, where recent case law has branded uncovered box cutters as dirks/daggers and as such, you could be arrested for having one "concealed" in your toolbox.

 

[killgar]

My example of the utility knives, was just to show that they exist -since you'd stated you've never seen one.
The purpose of my original question, was simply to know if such a mechanism would fulfil the requirement within California law, for it not to be considered a switch blade, since it would be biased to closing the blade, without direct interaction from the user.

Since I live in a state that denies full sized OTF automatic knives to its citizens, the ultimate practicality of the design comes from making the tool/OTF knife available to a population that, otherwise, would not be able to have it to begin with.

In California, in order to use an Airsoft gun in the woods or at an Airsoft park, the tip of the gun's barrel must be painted orange. Does this provide any real practical value to the gun's operator? No, but it's one of the legal hoops we must jump through, in order to enjoy an Airsoft competition, at all.

I'm glad to see you continue to use a tool that was handed down through your family.
I hope you don't live in California, where recent case law has branded uncovered box cutters as dirks/daggers and as such, you could be arrested for having one "concealed" in your toolbox.

52 year resident of California. For better and for worse.

I'm quite familiar with People versus Hester, the case regarding box cutters being defined as "concealed dirks/daggers". I've spoken about it at length in this sub-forum.

And for clarification, in their decision in People v. Hester the Appeals Court specifically stated that persons carrying concealed box cutters for legitimate purposes are not to be charged under the concealed dirks/daggers statute. They specifically included a "pass" in their decision for law-abiding citizens carrying box cutters. The Hester case involved very specific circumstances, and among other things, the Appeals Court justices based their decision to uphold Mr. Hester's conviction on the fact that he was a violent criminal who had just committed a series of violent crimes when he was found in possession of the two box cutters he had.

 

[Hashishiin]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of those. I've used regular utility knives frequently pretty much all my life, including in shipping and construction work, and I never once cut myself with one. Never saw anyone else cut themselves either. I think if a person actually needs one of those "safety" knives in order to not cut themselves, then they probably couldn't be trusted with ANY knife, or any other tool for that matter, and I wouldn't want them on my job site.

In my opinion some "tools" are a solution looking for a problem. Or they're designed for the "lowest denominator", like people who are too inept to use a basic cutting tool without cutting themselves.

Are those the type of item you were referring to in your original post? Because you specifically stated "forward pressure on the firing stud springs the blade out", and I didn't see any in that video that meets that description.

The knife below has been in my family for three generations now. No safety shroud, not even a retractable blade. I guess I'm just an old-fashioned risk-taker. Or, maybe I'm just careful with cutting tools, and competent .

... Disposable. Cutting tool. Gets dull, toss the unit.

I really don't like that. This guy is a tool.

 

[killgar]

... Disposable. Cutting tool. Gets dull, toss the unit.

I really don't like that. This guy is a tool.

I'm not sure I understand you. I've used disposable box cutters as well, in fact the blades in the one I pictured are disposable.

But if someone actually needs a retracting safety guard on a box cutter in order to avoid cutting themselves, like I said, I wouldn't trust them with any knife. After all, if they're using a box cutter in an unsafe manner, so much so that they need a safety guard, then they would be a hazard using any type of sharp, bladed instrument.

If a person uses a box cutter safely, they won't need a retracting safety guard.

But hey, if people want to buy and use box cutters with retractable safety guards, more power to them.

 

[Hashishiin]

I'm not sure I understand you. I've used disposable box cutters as well, in fact the blades in the one I pictured are disposable.

But if someone actually needs a retracting safety guard on a box cutter in order to avoid cutting themselves, like I said, I wouldn't trust them with any knife. After all, if they're using a box cutter in an unsafe manner, so much so that they need a safety guard, then they would be a hazard using any type of sharp, bladed instrument.

If a person uses a box cutter safely, they won't need a retracting safety guard.

But hey, if people want to buy and use box cutters with retractable safety guards, more power to them.

I am sorry, I meant to reply to buddy who posted the vid.

I just do not like disposable things. I'm fine with boxcutters and the like, and razors. I would much rather you throw away old razors than an entire plastic cutting tool. Just my opinion.

 

[awesome14]

My example of the utility knives, was just to show that they exist -since you'd stated you've never seen one.
The purpose of my original question, was simply to know if such a mechanism would fulfil the requirement within California law, for it not to be considered a switch blade, since it would be biased to closing the blade, without direct interaction from the user.

Since I live in a state that denies full sized OTF automatic knives to its citizens, the ultimate practicality of the design comes from making the tool/OTF knife available to a population that, otherwise, would not be able to have it to begin with.

In California, in order to use an Airsoft gun in the woods or at an Airsoft park, the tip of the gun's barrel must be painted orange. Does this provide any real practical value to the gun's operator? No, but it's one of the legal hoops we must jump through, in order to enjoy an Airsoft competition, at all.

I'm glad to see you continue to use a tool that was handed down through your family.
I hope you don't live in California, where recent case law has branded uncovered box cutters as dirks/daggers and as such, you could be arrested for having one "concealed" in your toolbox.

I'm pretty sure the blaze-orange barrel tip is to prevent police from opening fire on those armed with toy guns, and even then sometimes the cops will kill a 10-year-old, thinking the kid painted the barrel himself to fool the police!

 

[jackalope1899]

I'm pretty sure the blaze-orange barrel tip is to prevent police from opening fire on those armed with toy guns, and even then sometimes the cops will kill a 10-year-old, thinking the kid painted the barrel himself to fool the police!

You are absolutely correct, but that was not the point of my original analogy.
I feel like I've come here asking a general forestry question, but instead, I'm getting a lot of opinions on individually meaningless trees.

...and I'm still waiting on an answer (any answer) to my original question.

 

[killgar]

You are absolutely correct, but that was not the point of my original analogy.
I feel like I've come here asking a general forestry question, but instead, I'm getting a lot of opinions on individually meaningless trees.

...and I'm still waiting on an answer (any answer) to my original question.

You're looking for a definitive answer, but there very likely isn't one. When it comes to the law and legal definitions, unless there is a law already on the books addressing the issue, or unless a superior court has ruled on the matter, then there won't be an answer unless and until the legislature chooses to address it, or the matter makes it's way through the courts.

I have never seen any law or court decision (case law) regarding a knife like you have described- "forward pressure on the firing stud springs the blade out, but constant forward pressure on the switch is required to keep the blade in the open position". And I've done a lot of research on California knife laws and case laws.

It's no different than if someone created a knife with a blade that extended out from the handle using the attracting and repelling forces of electronically controlled magnets instead of a spring/gravity/inertia. Neither the legislature nor the courts have addressed such a knife.

The question you're asking simply hasn't been legally decided yet.

Of course prosecutors have a lot of power and discretion, and they are free to charge a person for carrying a "switchblade" based on THEIR definition. The worst that can happen to them is a judge dismisses the charge. But if a judge doesn't dismiss, then a jury will decide if the knife meets the legal definition of a "switchblade". And if they say it does, and the person is convicted, the defendant can ask the appeals court to decide if the knife meets the legal definition of a "switchblade". But I wouldn't recommend finding out that way.

 

[jackalope1899]

You're looking for a definitive answer, but there very likely isn't one. When it comes to the law and legal definitions, unless there is a law already on the books addressing the issue, or unless a superior court has ruled on the matter, then there won't be an answer unless and until the legislature chooses to address it, or the matter makes it's way through the courts.

I have never seen any law or court decision (case law) regarding a knife like you have described- "forward pressure on the firing stud springs the blade out, but constant forward pressure on the switch is required to keep the blade in the open position". And I've done a lot of research on California knife laws and case laws.

It's no different than if someone created a knife with a blade that extended out from the handle using the attracting and repelling forces of electronically controlled magnets instead of a spring/gravity/inertia. Neither the legislature nor the courts have addressed such a knife.

The question you're asking simply hasn't been legally decided yet.

Of course prosecutors have a lot of power and discretion, and they are free to charge a person for carrying a "switchblade" based on THEIR definition. The worst that can happen to them is a judge dismisses the charge. But if a judge doesn't dismiss, then a jury will decide if the knife meets the legal definition of a "switchblade". And if they say it does, and the person is convicted, the defendant can ask the appeals court to decide if the knife meets the legal definition of a "switchblade". But I wouldn't recommend finding out that way.

Thank you.
I appreciate your answer and your taking the time to explain it.