Question: Unusual select-fire pieces

[tyr_shadowblade]

I've heard about two different types of firearm that can fire either semi or full automatic but do not have the typical select-fire switch. Have never seen an example of either and have been unable to find further information. Was hoping someone here might know about one or both.

The first firearm has no selector switch. Pulling the trigger halfway back fires a single shot. Pulling the trigger all the way to the rear fires full auto. What weapons (if any) utilize this system?

The second firearm may, or may not, be an aftermarket conversion. Firearm is a semiautomatic rifle with a squeeze lever on the side of the receiver that, when depressed while pulling the trigger, will result in fully automatic fire. Supposedly was popular with certain "revolutionary" leftist groups during the late 1960s. Has anyone heard of such a piece, or is it a myth?

Thanks.

 

[mete]

Full auto conversions in the past were sometimes easy. Later ATF regs required redesign of these guns to make it very difficult to convert.
There are many trigger mechanisms but I can't remember which models you refer to. I knew a guy who was in WWII and carried a Thompson SMG which he kept on full auto all the time . He could fire as many rounds as he wanted to with that setting - 1, 2, to full !! Of course using it every day gave him lots of practice !

 

[Absintheur]

The Steyr Aug utilizes the trigger as the selector. Mine took about double the trigger effort to go to full auto as it did for the semi-auto trigger. There was a definite stop in other words and it took a deliberate effort to fire it in full auto. There have been others as well but I cannot think of them off the top of my head.

I have not heard of the second type, most revolutionary groups, like the IRA, had access to full auto weapons, the standard IRA rifle was the AR-180 for example which was available as a select fire.

Before others respond I will point out that discussing how to turn a semi-auto into a select fire firearm can be considered a violation of the National Firearms Act and places the people discussing it at risk if the live in the US. It would also place this forum at risk as well. It is not illegal to talk about the firearms but discussing how to convert one to full auto is.

 

[infobound1]

3 of my old thompsons have selector switchs, i have one that has always fired full, no switch, gun was purchased 20 years ago in the catskills, where i found most of the ones i own, have seen alot without serials, i think they came home a peice at a time!

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

I have not heard of the second type, most revolutionary groups, like the IRA, had access to full auto weapons, the standard IRA rifle was the AR-180 for example which was available as a select fire.

Before others respond I will point out that discussing how to turn a semi-auto into a select fire firearm can be considered a violation of the National Firearms Act and places the people discussing it at risk if the live in the US. It would also place this forum at risk as well. It is not illegal to talk about the firearms but discussing how to convert one to full auto is.

Not IRA, but defunct domestic terrorist groups, like the Weathermen and Minutemen.

Have no interest in gunsmithing schematics or tutorials. Just want to know if anyone has ever heard of a firearm with that type of selector mechanism.

Sounds like some sort of half-assed pre-"auto sear" activator. I've seen conversion schematics that utilized drop-in parts, and I've seen schematics for a detachable foregrip that somehow disabled the disconnector, but what I'm referring to is a semi-auto rifle, possibly a .30 M1 Carbine, that had a large lever on one side of the receiver which needed to be either depressed or held down while firing in order to fire fully automatic.

That sounds incredibly awkward and seems like a stupid design for a number of reasons. However, I heard from several unrelated sources that many such weapons were in circulation at one time. IIRC, they even refered to such a weapon on an old episode of Dragnet, saying it was called a "spitfire." I know that several BATF agents participate on the forum, as well as dozens of full auto enthusiasts who lawfully collect older Class III weapons. So, I figure that someone will be able to tell me whether or not this is an urban myth or the figment of someone's imagination.

While I'm sure it's possible to alter a firearm in a similar fashion, I don't want confirmation that it could be done or that a one of a kind prototype exists somewhere. I want to know if anyone has ever heard of such weapons being in circulation or being seized from criminals; and if so, what type of firearms they were. Have no desire to acquire one, just want to know if they actually exist. Maybe it was an early assault rifle design? Haven't seen reference to it in any gun magazine or firearms encyclopedia.

Thanks.

 

[tjchung]

Didn't the old German MG-34 have a selector type trigger? I recall that for single shots, you used your index finger to pull the trigger. For full auto, you used your index and middle fingers to pull the trigger, which pulled it back further.

 

[Revolvergeek]

The first type goes waaayyy back. Some of the early Beretta subguns, and several odd models from South and Central America used two triggers or an odd stacked trigger setup. Very few things made that way anymore though. BRP Guns is making a pretty cool Franken-Subgun called the STG-34k the uses a lot of surplus parts, including the MG34 trigger group. http://brpguns.com/stg34k.htm

Beretta 38/42 subgun

MG34 Trigger / Fire Control

I don't remember hearing anything about the second type off the top of my head. This may be an instance of some cross pollination of old gun info; the Japanese Nambu 94 pistol has an exposed sear lever on the side of the gun, and some pistols could be fired by pressing this down instead of pulling the trigger. I don't think this was an intentional feature though, more likely a combination of bad design and worse late war production. When I used to work firearms retail we would hear a crazy array of half remembered stories that grandpa or great grandpa told somebody back when they were a kid.

Nambu 94

 

[Absintheur]

The Spitfire was a M2 Carbine that fired a wildcat 22 round (5.7 mm MMJ). It was developed by Melvin Johnson and while there was some military interests it was not pursued and few of these were made. It functioned like a normal M2 with a standard selector switch.

I can easily think of several ways to make the lever type and they need not be awkward at all. But the groups such as you mentioned have strong backing from other countries that include making weapons such as the AK47 available as well as other types of weapons including crew served, SAMs, RPGs, etc. I don't think they have a need to monkey with jury rigged full autos. I was a class 3 dealer for about 20 years and I cannot recall anything such as you describe although so many illegal conversions have been done it would not surprise me if this had been done.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

The Spitfire was a M2 Carbine that fired a wildcat 22 round (5.7 mm MMJ). It was developed by Melvin Johnson and while there was some military interests it was not pursued and few of these were made. It functioned like a normal M2 with a standard selector switch.

I Googled "Spitfire" + "full auto" and found several references to a cheap Thompson knockoff made in AZ during the 1960s that was open bolt and so easy to convert that ATF classified the semi carbine as a Class III firearm . . . but there was no weird side lever on it.

I'm starting to think some scriptwriter for Dragnet got confused or made something up, then some folks who watched it though it was real and told other folks about it.

 

[StuntDouble]

The Steyr MPI 69 submachine gun used a two stage trigger where the initial squeeze allowed semi auto fire, and squeezing all the way through allowed full automatic fire.

 

[Cougar Allen]

I'm starting to think some scriptwriter for Dragnet got confused or

Hollywood doesn't get the details right because they don't want to get the details right. They want the details to sound cool. "Spitfire" sounds cool. That's all they're interested in. They don't care what it means.

 

[Trent Rock]

Before others respond I will point out that discussing how to turn a semi-auto into a select fire firearm can be considered a violation of the National Firearms Act and places the people discussing it at risk if the live in the US. It would also place this forum at risk as well. It is not illegal to talk about the firearms but discussing how to convert one to full auto is.

§ 5861. Prohibited acts

It shall be unlawful for any person—
(a) to engage in business as a manufacturer or importer of, or dealer in, firearms without having paid the special (occupational) tax required by section 5801 for his business or having registered as required by section 5802; or
(b) to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(c) to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or
(e) to transfer a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(f) to make a firearm in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as required by this chapter; or
(k) to receive or possess a firearm which has been imported or brought into the United States in violation of section 5844; or
(l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false.

I don't see anything about dissemination of information
*******************************************
I always wanted to try this

http://www.amazon.com/Ruger-10-22-C...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222158070&sr=1-1

But, my morbid fear of jail prevails...

 

[SIFU1A]

i see manulas for converting AK's, AR15's, Mini14's and such all the time for sale at giunshows, in magazines, and on the web, there is no law agsainst talking about it, nor explaining how to do it, anybody heard of "freedom of speech"?

now if ya start doing it, well thats another story.

but thats not what we are adressing here, we are talking about it.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

Desert Publications had a multi-volume series of pamphlets called "FULL AUTO", which will tell you how to ruin a perfectly good firearm while simultaneously committing several federal felonies. I've compared the instructions in those books with the methods used by some Class II gunsmiths and they are completely different. There is even worse advice online.

The 10/22 conversion is complicated. You need to fabricate several new internal parts. Not like some of the old open bolt MAC-10 and KG-9 "conversions" where all you needed to do was file something down or wedge a piece of doweling inside.

 

[Absintheur]

i see manulas for converting AK's, AR15's, Mini14's and such all the time for sale at giunshows, in magazines, and on the web, there is no law agsainst talking about it, nor explaining how to do it, anybody heard of "freedom of speech"?

now if ya start doing it, well thats another story.

but thats not what we are adressing here, we are talking about it.

Doesn't matter if there is a specific law against it, it is considered conspiring to violate the law, the ATF will still come make your wife miscarry, destroy your home, confiscate every firearm you own, kill your pets, and bankrupt you till you are forced to accept their judgment and punishment. Yes all those things have happened to innocent citizens and in every case not a single illegal weapon was found. On this forum they would most likely go after the forum owner for conspiring to violate the National Firearms Act. It has happened too many times. I was a class three dealer for many years, I was threaten several times by the ATF, one of the reasons I got out of the business. As an example...The ATF came into my shop and started a review of my books and forms. When the agent started to make copies of all the yellow forms from people who had bought semiauto rifles I pointed out it was illegal for them to do so. (yes it was illegal form them to do that) The agent pulled down a manual on my bookshelf above the desk he was working at in my office and told me that this book showed how to make full auto weapons and as I didn't have a manufacturers license did I want to be arrested for conspiring to violate the NFA or did I want to let him finish his work. The book was a simple breakdown manual for various semi and full auto weapons. A little over a year later I surrendered my FFLs after every member of my family was subjected to IRS audits. I think I got off easy to tell the truth.

I know it happens!

 

[SIFU1A]

really? then why doesnt ATF go to the austin gunshow and prosecute folks or prosecute all the folks who advertise manuals in SOF magazine (and others)??

maybe they were just after YOU lol, maybe you had something else going on ya dont care to post here, for instance.

or perhaps the ATF agent ya dealt with was just trying to intimidate ya (he succeded too didnt he??) which is a very common LEO tactic.

if ya are not conspiring to convert semi's to full auto with someone else(conspiracy by its very definition is gonna involve 2 or more people, if only 1 person is involved how can it be a conspiracy??) its not illegal, if it is why doesnt ATF go after the folks who publish such manuals?? imho that would be a HELLUVA lot closer to conspiracy than some folks chatting on the 'net, imho anyway.

could it possibly be that ya have freedom of speech under the constitution??

like i said, start USING the info to CONVERT semis to full auto THEN you have problems just TALKING about most things is NOT illegal, it is in some cases, ie ya cant threaten the president, or yell "fire" in a crowded theater but NOT in most cases.

and yes to be prosecuted for breaking a law the law has to exist in the first place, that statement simply isnt correct, conspiracy IS a law by the way, but anyway they cant just arbitrarily drag your ass into court for nothing,

of course anything can happen, but generally the courts/juries will sort it out,

but point being simply TALKING about converting semi's is NOT illegal brother you have to go beyond talking about it, you are wrong in this matter.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

and yes to be prosecuted for breaking a law the law has to exist in the first place, that statement simply isnt correct, conspiracy IS a law by the way, but anyway they cant just arbitrarily drag your ass into court for nothing,

of course anything can happen, but generally the courts/juries will sort it out,

I'm familiar with several cases of arbitrary and capricious prosecution in rural municipalities with a single county judge and no official oversight. The cops and courts pretty much do whatever the fuck they want there.

If you are arrested by the police, you are obviously guilty -- and if you are guilty you don't get no plea bargain -- you're lucky if you even get a "jury trial" made up of the cops' relatives and a do-nothing public defender who's best friends with the DA.

Guvmint does what it wants. If you tell guvmint "no" with just cause, it is possible the ruling may go in your favor . . . 5 - 20 years later.

 

[SIFU1A]

they were convicted of breaking a law which isnt on the books?? is that what ya are saying?? thats what i was saying was not possible, to be convicteed of something it has to be on the books in the 1st place,

sure in some places things like you speak of happen, thats what appeals courts are for, and sadly if ya dont have $$ ya can get the shitty end of the stick. but in other cases it gets worked out (ie randy weavers case for 1, the FBI and US marshalls made some serious errors BUT weaver wasnt totally innocent either he did mod a couple of shotguns), i for one dont think the jails are full of totally inocent folks so imho most miscarriages are resolved, but nothing is ever perfect 100% of the time. but i still say they are the exception not the rule, LEO's generally dont do "whatever the fuck they want", not in this country anyway.

but they are still gonna charge you with something which exists they arent gonna say ya were conspiring with a book to convert semis to full which is what we are talking about IIRC, and i still say that wont happen, and still say its not a violation of any law to read a book or post on the net concerning how to convert semis to full autos, its not.

and post some links to the cases ya are speaking of i'd love to check 'em out, musta been a horrible att'y to allow the arresting officers relatives on the jury lol, oh but i forgot he's best buds with the DA, i gotta see this one, did it stand up on appeal? also is this what the appeals court found happened (the relatives/etc) or is it just "sour grapes" from the defendant? as far as pleas ya arent guaranteed a plea offer anywhere, it just usually happens, but IIRC ya are guaranteed a jury trial if ya choose to have one, maybe things have changed since i got my degrees in CJ but i doubt it lol, ya do live in the US of A right? you too absinthe post some links to the cases involving the forum owners who were prosecuted for conspiracy to violate the NFA for members discussing how to do it which has happened many time supposedly.

like i said, sure travesties do occur but its the exception not the rule and generally involve murders and rapes where the defendant was found guilty by a jury, usually prosecuted by a DA who strongly believed in the defendants guilt FWIW, and later exonerated by DNA evidence which comes to lite, that happens all the time, post me a link to someone who was convicted of conspiracy with a book to convert a semi auto firearm to full auto i dont think that happens too often since like i said conspiracy by its very definition involves 2 or more people conspiring together to do something illegal, oh and conspiracy by and of itself isnt illegal unless ya conspire to commit a crime, folks conspire legally all the time, ie i conspire with friends to go out to dinner all the time, and conspire to go fishing thu AM at 7, stuff like that, all perfectly legal imho.

also, just a thought, if we were posting/discussing something illegal(converting semis to FA) which "puts this board at risk" and is "a violation of the NFA" isnt it odd and suprising no mods have locked this thread or at the very least told us to shut up about it? not really because thats bullshit.

FWIW, for the 10th time, TALKING about it isnt illegal, if you DO IT you will possibly have problems but to DISCUSS how its done theoretically is not a violation of anything, nor is publishing books/manuals which describe the process in great detail, its when you implement the info that the problems can start, thats what i'm talking about, what the law says, not what "may happen in this area" or "what the cops do in my neck of the woods" if the cops/courts arent gonna go by the law we could all be arrested for being baptists, or for not being baptists as far as that goes, or they could do what the nazis did and simply arrest anyone who has views which differ from the accepted norms, or simply because they dont like your looks lol, no intent or breaking of laws would be neccesary anyway ya could be arrested and put in a concentration camp for whatever or for nothing, if thats the case, we could be arrested for anything or nothing and detained and put on trial, for nothing or for anything, the question of is this or that legal or illegal is the least of our worries imho, but i would like to think we are governed by the law and the constitution, if we arent maybe we should all move to mexico huh?

 

[zenheretic]

All that may be true Sifu, but if you are like Absintheur, they can sure put your nuts in a vice and squeeze for a while before you walk away free. In his example it would not have mattered that he wasn't conspiring. The ATF guy have charged him and suspended his license. Then he would have gotten the joy of fighting the charges minus his business income. Yea, that would pretty much suck in my book.

 

[SIFU1A]

maybe, but imho if spark thought talking about it was gonna get his nutz in a vice he would do something about it ie lock the thread.