Railroad Rail Metal for Knife

KnuckleDownKnives

KnuckleDownKnives

Time to make the doughnuts..
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
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I know I know, buy some real steel.... Not happening on this one. Friend is insisting on it and heck it's going to be an adventure from start to finish so I'm all in regardless if it fails or not. My buddy is one of the head game wardens down here and wants to commission me to build him a custom hog hunting knife and is insisting he want it made from some very old rail road rail he has access to. Well sort of, apparently it's going to take a couple of hours on some four wheelers to get to, start of the adventure.....

What I'm hoping to do is when we get out there cut about a 2 foot long section of rail and bring it back and take a bandsaw and cut about a 3/8" strip off the top of the rail to use as the blade steel. There are very limited posts on the we\b about actual knives made from the rail and plenty on spike. Hoping some people who have attempted this will chime in. I've read the steel a lot of RR's have used is 1080 and 1084 or real close characteristics. There is an old post on here from 09' where JTKnives tested a piece after a HT and got 64-65 numbers from it. Hoping he may see this and chime in.

I'm not really going to need and "extremely" sharp blade as it is going to be a spear point blade with one use, thrusting into a wild hog, but if it turns out good and a good edge is attainable, well that's what I'm hoping for.... Hopefully the end of this adventure is him bringing me on my first wild bore hunt and one of us bagging a wild hog with a piece of history re purposed into wild hog killer...
 
I would probably start by slicing a cross section of the rail (say 1/4 in), normalizing it, and hardening it. Break a piece off, to make sure that it develops an appropriate grain size. Temper it at 375 or so, test toughness by breaking another peice off. Retemper to 400, 425, etc. This should give you an idea of where you want your final temper to be. It will also ensure that the rail is all conducted from the same steel rather than some laminated construction (no idea if they do this, but it doesn't seem that unlikely).

I think you will have to be careful with two things. First, there may be cracks throughout the rail, because very heavy things presumably used this section of rail until it was no longer usable and had to be replaced. Second, even without cracking, I am sure all the compressive forces have stressed and distorted the steel significantly, so stress relief may be critical. If you don't get the performance out of the steel that you would like, you likely can make the blade with a known steel core sandwitched betwixt two sections of rail.

Also, I would generally prefer to use something other than a knife to kill a hog, and rely on the knife for cleaning the carcass. Most of my experience comes from hunting in the western half of the states, but as a general rule, hogs are mean, nasty and dangerous. I would use a semi automatic rifle for my first hog hunt. I have a few buds who hunt hog with muzzleloaders and bows, and there is nothing wrong with it, but they tend to be very experienced (and carry a backup). I think that folks who spear hunt hogs are a bit crazy.

Best of luck.
 
joedhiggins said:
I would probably start by slicing a cross section of the rail (say 1/4 in), normalizing it, and hardening it. Break a piece off, to make sure that it develops an appropriate grain size. Temper it at 375 or so, test toughness by breaking another peice off. Retemper to 400, 425, etc. This should give you an idea of where you want your final temper to be. It will also ensure that the rail is all conducted from the same steel rather than some laminated construction (no idea if they do this, but it doesn't seem that unlikely).
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Thanks for the reply and word of advice. a lot less work than just going straight in and cutting a section from the top and finding out what I've got. I have heard of some rail using the lamination for a period of time and then doing away from it because of delamination. It will be interesting to see what I find.

joedhiggins said:
Also, I would generally prefer to use something other than a knife to kill a hog, and rely on the knife for cleaning the carcass. Most of my experience comes from hunting in the western half of the states, but as a general rule, hogs are mean, nasty and dangerous. I would use a semi automatic rifle for my first hog hunt. I have a few buds who hunt hog with muzzleloaders and bows, and there is nothing wrong with it, but they tend to be very experienced (and carry a backup). I think that folks who spear hunt hogs are a bit crazy.
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He's the third friend of mine down here that hog hunts and does the kill with a knife. Personally I'll be happy to watch and be there as backup, but yes CRAZY comes to mind....
 
Wow using rail, been a long time on that one. I still have my chunks of rail from those days sitting under my bench. But befor we get into a discussion about using rail I feal the need to just toss out the warning.

"Rail road spikes and rail are railroad property and taking them is considered stealing, and the rail road does not look to kindly on that"

Ok that's out of the way onto the steel talk. WOW went back and re read my post and I have come a long way sence those days. I don't remember much from that test besides the face that it seamed to be great steel. I never did forge a knife out of it as my forging skills where let's say beginner level back then. Now today I would not hesitate to lop off a chunk and fire up the forge. I remember the grain being very fine in the brake test so that's a big plus. When I head out the the shop today I will se per if I ca locate my sliced off slab. I don't know what shop tools you have but if I had to take a guess I would try quenching in canola oil from the 1475-1500 range. Weather your forging or not I would do some thermal cycles on that steel so you can get it as relaxed and stress free as possible.

Keep me posted on your progress and I will help any way I can.
 
Well I'm going to try this again. Freak power outage at the office.

JT thanks for dropping in, you're old post was by far the most informative one I was able to locate on the web of the very limited info I was able to find.

As far as possessing the metal. The metal is being obtained by a higher up game warden from wildlife management property. I'll take his word on it being ok to have. I won't be trying to bring it to a scrapyard or anything. Plus when we go get it he'll be the one leading us to it. I think it's an old feeder line that went to an old farm that is now just forest land, so it may not have actually ever been owned by the railway as typically from what I've read the farm would have had to pay for the rail and owned it.

I'm thinking this can have possible pro's and possible con's which I won't find out for a couple months till we go get it. First pro I can see if it is just old feeder line that went to a farm is that it's not main line and have the abuse main line would have. But that is a double edged sword. Not being a main line it may not have the better steel characteristics that would probably be in main line. I'm really hoping we don't get out there do all the work to cut some of it out bring it back and find that is some of the laminated junk they used for periods of time till they realized it delaminated. Either way I think it's going to be fun.

Have some more questions but got to run.. If I'm not back on this weekend ya'll have a good holiday..
 
Rail rack is usually between 1070 and 1085 ... 1080 being a good guess for an untested piece. The more stress the track takes, the higher the carbon content. The track used in curves has the highest carbon content. Track on a line from a coal field would be the highest, as it carries long trains of very heavily loaded cars.

Rail spikes are low carbon,... even the ones marked HC. Most HC spikes are .35-.45% carbon. They make good hawks and novelty knives, but are poor for actual use knives.

The funny shaped spring clips that are used as hold-downs are usually 1055. They make knives similar to 5160.


To use a piece of track, slice pieces off it like slicing bread. You will need a metal cutting band saw for this. A HF 7X12 will do this job. You could also have a machine shop do the cutting for you. Any saw you use will need a coolant flood system. Cut the slices about 1/2" to 3/4" thick. Cut off the "feet" to make a more or less rectangular piece of stock. From there is it lots of hard forging to make it longer and thinner. A 1/2" slice should make a big blade. A 3/4" slice would make a short sword. Access to a power hammer or press will make drawing out the billet much easier. I would recommend making the tang end of the blade from the end of the slice that was the top of the track.

I'm not saying it can't be done by hand, or that it won't be cool to do it ( actually, it will be quite hot to do it ;) ). I will say that a piece of 1070-1075 to make a great hog sticker would cost about $20-30. You will spend more on fuel and much more in time to make the bar from a rail track.


What you can make from a slice of rail track is a great axe or hawk. You can cut the thickness needed and forge the basic shape. Drifting the eye isn't hard, especially if you drill a row of starter holes. You can draw the top down into a large bearded axe blade from a 1.5" thick slice.
You will be limited by the room in your forge to get the head in and out, as well as your equipment and skill at drawing and shaping thick pieces of steel.

I have a couple slices of track sitting in the forge right now that will either become Viking hand axes ... or bookends.


I will try and make a separate thread someday about how to forge "little men" from RR spikes. I have made blacksmiths and other workmen from them.
 
This is interesting for me. I have a 3' section of track from the cabin. Thought of a post anvil. I also have a 40+ year old grader blade that I cut a chunk off of to test. I treated it like it was 1090 or W1 and it came out at Rc66/67 out of a brine quench. I want to send it to a piece to a metallurgical lab to see what it is really made of, but was quoted $250.00 to test. It seems like low manganese as my coupon got an auto hamon on the tapered end of the slice. I've got a bunch of the spring clips as well. We have a cabin in the coal branch, Alberta. There are dozens of the spring clips along the tracks. I go hiking with the dogs and bring a few back every time. I would much prefer known steel, but others with cabins in the area like the nostalgia of materials from the area. There is a bunch of steel cable I need to harvest as well.
 
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I'm not sure what kind of tools you'll be taking to procure your chunk of rail, but if you have to take four wheelers to get there, I'm assuming there's probably not much in the way of power tools or O/A torches.

If you're planning on a hacksaw, take plenty of blades and give yourself about a week. ;)

I'd probably grab a battery operated recip. saw and and handful of quality bi-metal blades. Oh, and make sure you've got at LEAST a couple of fully charged batteries.
 
joedhiggins said:
Also, I would generally prefer to use something other than a knife to kill a hog, and rely on the knife for cleaning the carcass. Most of my experience comes from hunting in the western half of the states, but as a general rule, hogs are mean, nasty and dangerous. I would use a semi automatic rifle for my first hog hunt. I have a few buds who hunt hog with muzzleloaders and bows, and there is nothing wrong with it, but they tend to be very experienced (and carry a backup). I think that folks who spear hunt hogs are a bit crazy.

Best of luck.
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The guys I know who "knife hunt" hogs are using dogs to wear the hog out and pin it down for sticking. Still not quite as "safe" as a bow or rifle shot, but to each their own.
 
knife to a gunfight said:
The guys I know who "knife hunt" hogs are using dogs to wear the hog out and pin it down for sticking. Still not quite as "safe" as a bow or rifle shot, but to each their own.
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From my understanding that's how they do it around here also - use "ketch dogs" to hold hog while somebody slips in to side and sticks knife in to cut arteries, etc.

On the comment a "not really going to need and "extremely" sharp blade as it is going to be a spear point blade with one use, thrusting into a wild hog" - well, you DO need a very sharp knife because the killing is not by "sticking" but by cutting those innards (arteries, etc) just like with a broadhead.

Ken H>
 
From my reading on the subject - from those who have experience with the biggest and meanest type of pig ! Six well trained dogs chase and hold the pig. The hunter ,after running after the dogs will thrust his knife into the heart and/or blood vessels above the heart. The blade should be 8-12"long with a strong point for thrusting . Any hesitation here will put hunter and dogs at extreme risk !! Even under the best conditions dogs are often lost ! A large European boar with tusks is a formitable enemy Tusks, strength, speed and meaness !! Done properly it's a clean quick kill. Any mistake and it's a dangerous terrible event !
 
mete said:
From my reading on the subject - from those who have experience with the biggest and meanest type of pig ! Six well trained dogs chase and hold the pig. The hunter ,after running after the dogs will thrust his knife into the heart and/or blood vessels above the heart. The blade should be 8-12"long with a strong point for thrusting . Any hesitation here will put hunter and dogs at extreme risk !! Even under the best conditions dogs are often lost ! A large European boar with tusks is a formitable enemy Tusks, strength, speed and meaness !! Done properly it's a clean quick kill. Any mistake and it's a dangerous terrible event !
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I've got two Great Danes. They were used as boar and bear hunting dogs. It's hard to see with the goofy couch potatoes, but when they stand alert, barking at the UPS guy, they are quite the sight. An unaltered male is a formidable hunter.
 
Thanks all for the input.

What are y'alls thought on cutting a slice right off the top of the track say 3/8" thick by the length of the the blade so no forging is necicary?

Yes they hunt with dogs and my game warden friend and his other buddy's are highly skilled hunters probably some of if not the best in the area when it comes to hogs as they are often called to take care of the neucense ones around here.

As far as tools getting out there to where the material is located let me clarify the 4 wheelers. 4 seeter 4x4 mule and a Polaris ranger 4x4. Planning on taking a small generator and a portaband with about 20 blades just incase pwe need them and some sort of cooling/cutting fluid. And in the event that doesn't work a small portable set of oxy asetaline torches. My mule has 5500 lbs winches front and rear so I can anchor to a tree if needed and also pull from the front to untangle or position the rail for cutting access. I also have an arm attachment I built with a snatch block I can route the cable through I've used for dragging long logs that I can use to lift one end of the rail vertical about 20" off the ground. Planning on bringing some 6x6 chunks of wood to use to prop the rail on for cutting. Some 6' prybars sledge hammers and a coupe strong backs and I think we'll be able to get the job done with a fair amount of ease. Use one machine to tote the tools in and the other to tote the rail with. And a cooler with a few cold one for the ride might end up in the mix somewhere.
 
Oh and Stacy. Yes that's what I told him. I could get home some very good steel for about $20-$30. If the rail turns out to be worth while he is insisting that we give it a try. Is it way above my head? Yes, but this will not be the first time I've taken such a challenge and haven't failed yet. I think sometimes the best way to learn is to get thrown to the wolves and learn. Hot and hard work is my friend so it'll just be another day to me. If I do end up having to forge it'll be done with sweat and hammers. And a lot of heat. I'll probably build a drum forge if I can't get a gas one built in time as I pretty much have all the material on hand to make one. I think the only thing I'm short is something to build the legs out of and $20 at the steel shop would handle that.

I'm actually more exited about this project than I am any other one I've done making knive, have going or have future plans of starting as of now. The biggest concern I really have is the rail being junk. I framed houses for 25 years so banging on some steel for a week will just be a good workout.
 
I'm glad you are excited about this project, but feel the chances of it happening as described are near Zero. You better take tents and food, because you may be there for days cutting a rail section lengthwise with a portaband. You would be far better to just slice off a couple 4 foot sections of rail and take them out with you. You could deal with trying to slice one down the top later. That will still require a lot of work or taking it to a machine shop. From there it will still be a lot of work reducing the slice into a bar of steel and making a blade. Once the blade is made, you have to hope that the steels history hasn't set it up for terrible warp or cracks in HT.


All this to make a knife with more-or-less unknown carbon content. I put this project in the whittling a tree down to make a toothpick - sure it is possible, but not really practical or a good idea.
Maybe you can get the fellow to come up with an idea for the handle material that has sentimental attachment and use good steel.

There is also a lot of risk involved in slicing up a large piece of steel in the middle of nowhere. Accidents happen easier when doing things with no experience and pushing the equipment past its design limits. Getting out of "The middle of nowhere" in an emergency is not how you want to end an adventure.

I'll let it go with that avuncular advice and say have at it. Obviously, take lots of photos and be safe.
 
pleasanthill said:
What I'm hoping to do is when we get out there cut about a 2 foot long section of rail and bring it back and take a bandsaw and cut about a 3/8" strip off the top of the rail to use as the blade steel.
Click to expand...

Stacey sorry I know I've wrote some lengthy comments, but I'm not a complete idiot to try and cut a railway lengthwise in the middle of the woods.

I know there are a lot of people who will read this and say just go to the store and buy a chunk of known metal. This whole thing is more about the process than it is the final product. I would have rather tried and failed than have never tried anything at all. It's not always about having something you can buy in a store. There are still people who'd rather walk into the woods cut down some trees and make there own lumber than drive to the store and buy it. There comes a certain level of self gratification from it. Whether this turns out as a success or a failure for the rest of our lives we'll be able to sit down in front of the fire drinking a cold one and say "you remember going and doing".. Not everyone likes an adventure. Most people now a days are strapped to their cellphone and don't even talk to people in real life. They just send a text. I know here in the states kids don't even go out and play anymore. There all strapped to their phones and game consoles and barely experience anything.

In my eyes ANYONE can go to the store and buy a some materials and put them together and have something if they halfway apply themselves. Whether it be metal for a knife, wood for a house or whatever. I don't know maybe some people are just scared of failure and scared of the unknown. Why some people will get so hung up on why I would want to try thins because there is an easier way and better materials I'll never understand in the same respect as why they can't understand why I would bother trying to use and old piece of railway. We're just different people. If you're willing to help if I have questions. Thank you. If not sit back and watch. If it succeeds great. If it's a failure great. Either way it will be a success because I'm doing something I want that makes me happy.

Sorty rant over.
 
Pleasant hill, have you ever tried to cut hardened steel with a portaband?
 
Oh and as far as handle material he mentioned something about a set of elk horns he has from a 5 day solo hunt he shot with a bow In the Arkansas mountains.
 
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