Rambo/Bowie knives etc are just macho BS!

C

Chariot

Joined
Jul 9, 2000
Messages
173
Sorry for the provocative topic, but I think this is a subject that needs to be discussed.

For self-defense, is big fixed knives (7" or more) a wise choice, or is it just macho bs from people living in a fantasy world?

When I originally joined this forum I thought "Rambo" type knives belonged on the silver screen and I was surprised that many people actually had that type of knife as their prefered choice for a self-defense situation. Going through the forums I came across it again and again, a lot of talk about their favorite knife was a 7" or in many cases even bigger knives.

Is that a realistic approach to self-defense with a knife, carrying a knife that's close to a short sword? (I mean it sounds like something out of the movie Gladiator)

I can't imagine walking around daily year after year with that kind of knife on me, it sounds more like something a baglady or nutcase would do.

To me, "Rambo" type knives are survival knives for extreme situations (woods, jungle, war situations etc) and if we look at the movies where they've been represented it shows just that (Rambo being in the woods, war etc, Crocodile Dundee taking place in the Australian wilderness) and then your average slasher movie (Halloween, Scream etc.) and yes I think Friday the 13th's Jason would like that type of a knife as well :-)

But if you look at it realistically, how many documented situations can you name where people used that type of knife for self-defense? How many people that practice knife fighting systems use one? How many books and videos covering knife self-defense pick a 7" or bigger knife as their ideal choice?

Looking at websites like MastersofDefense.com they don't even sell knives like that, looking at the pictures of their specialists in knife self-defense, nobody holds a knife of that kind.

The only benefits I can think of, having a 7" knife, or bigger is:

#1 - The length, not having to get too close.

#2 - The intimidation value of a big knife (Crocodile Dundee example)

Now for the first one, I would say a telescope baton would be a much wiser choice:

1 - A telescope baton has an even better reach.
2 - Hitting someone with steel across their hand can be a very effective way of disarming.
3 - Explaining a baton would be much easier than a huge butcher knife type of knife if you end up in court.
4 - Learning how to effectively strike with a baton would be much easier than getting good at fighting with a "Rambo" type knife. (Much quicker learing curve, many special courses available that teaches just that).

For the intimidation factor, I would say a large knife is far better than a baton, but then again what are the experts views on this? Personally I do believe that this CAN be of importance, but I just don't know HOW important. This I would like further info on.

A large knife, like a Bowie etc, obviously has it's place in war, wilderness etc. but in everyday life in the city - I doubt it.

As for close combat situations (getting mugged, getting into barfights, wrestling, taking you to the ground trying to hit your with a broken bottle etc situations) a smaller knife would be a lot easier to pull and actually use, the chances are that you won't even be able to pull your 7" knife.

"Rambo" knives have their place, but I doubt they have their place in modern life self-defense... please posts your views on this, this is just thoughts I have, if you can convince me otherwise please do. Looking forwards to your replies.

Regards,
Chariot
 
If you're talking about actually daily carry of a fixed blade than I'll agree with the premise that a 7+" knife is a bit much, especially in urban environs. I really like the large blades and would much prefer to use such for self-defense vs. a smaller blade. But I don't carry such for daily wear. Being in California it's not practical to carry any fixed blade while it's a snap to carry concealed any folder. I struggled with carying a folder vs. smaller fixed blade and came down on the side of what's legal and practical. If I'm going out in the bushes I carry a larger knife.
 
My thoughts on self-defense knives are that I would rather meet a wantabee knife fighter with a long bladed knife than a knife fighter with a 3" bladed pocketknife that KNOWS how to cut a person from A-hole to appetite twelve times in less than a minute.
Bottom line---it's what you KNOW how to use and WHEN to use it, not the size, style, color, maker, steel or anything else. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Historically when blades were primary weapons men carried swords for defense, not knives. In the US before revolvers were common men carried swords or bowie knives as auxiliary arms. Only social conventions and laws reduce the blades to concealable sizes. These really do reduce the effectiveness of the blades as weapons.

I was once embarrased while sparring with a total amateur who had a 12" blade while I was using a 4" blade. I walked right into the sheathed point while doing one of my cutest sure-fire professional moves.

I agree that length can be good, even without an edge. I've sometimes carried a heavy cane into places that disturbed my tranquility.
 
Well, i'm an advocate of big knives, but not for self defence. I think carrying a large fixed blade around is excessive, unless it is also needed for other tasks. I would not generally carry a fixed blade of over 7 inches for self-defense.

One advantage of a big knife is that if you take a swing at someone's hand, you may well disconnect it from their wrist (we're probably talking about a khukri here). If there is more than one BG and you take a limb off one of them........

Just my .02

James

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The beast we are, lest the beast we become.
 
Historically we've used bodyarmour, helmets and shields as well, and in order to break through that you need more than a knife. Doesn't sound like a valid point today though, or we might as well use handgranades as well as it's deadly effective.

But sure, if there's a man-to-man-to-the-death fight, I might have chosen a larger knife, but for city life, that's a different story... also you can add a lot of speed and movement from a smaller/lighter knife, something to think about...

 
Hitting the hand with a weapon is called by many "de-fanging the snake". I would much rather de-fang a snake with a knife than a baton, as it will do more damage. Larger knives also have more weight and leverage, and so a slash with a Randall #1 versus an AFCK, given that they travel at similar speeds, will potentially be much more destructive. Also, it allows you to stay out of your opponent's reach while you are cutting them up. HillBilly, in my opinion, is wrong. Put a magic marker in a friend's hands and you go with bare hanbds and spar. After you get over the first bit of awkwardness, I bet that the untrained/little trained friend will have put many magic marker marks on you, despite your x number of years training. Knives are equalizers- they help equal out abilities. Beginners wildly flailing a knife can do much damage. All it takes is one good cut and your heart will pump out your blood.

A folder is probably a more practical tool in the city, and given laws and such it may be the the best overall choice, but if you face a bad guy in an alley and you pull out your benchmade folder and the Bad Guy pulls out a 9" dagger, you had better look at how you can best get your behind out of there, fast...

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"Come What May..."
 
Chariot, there was an interesting thread in the reviews forum (I think) about what happens when you poke a flak vest with a knife. You might be surprised by how little protection a armor offers.

I agree with what some have said here: I'd always rather have a larger knife, but when legality is an issue, I usually just have a folder.
 
The only role I can see for fighting knives in today's urban settings, would be in HD situations where a firearm is not posible for legal reasons. Having said that, I must admit I find some of them cool and there are worse ways to blow a couple of hundred dollars.
cool.gif
 
>>For self-defense, is big fixed knives (7" or more) a wise choice, or is it just macho bs from people living in a fantasy world?<<

Do we agree that "bad things" happen, especially in some urban environments? If so, do we agree in some preparation for that possibility? Yes? How does one prepare?

I think frankly training is important. After that, the tools one chooses to carry is also important. Some go with a folder. Some with a fixed blade. Some with, yes, a bowie. And, some with a gun. You weigh your situation, your training, your mindset/attributes and your tools.

Personally I carry a folder, sometimes along with a small FB. The Bowie stays next to my bed. I would prefer a bowie but all things considered, it won't work for me in a daily carry, though I know it does for some folks. Hey, I won't judge what their life is worth to them...
smile.gif


sing

AKTI #A000356

 
I see a lot of you continue to say "I would go with a Bowie" but you don't say why?

If the EXPERTS on knife fighting don't go with a big knife, why would you? I think they know more about fighting and self-defense than you and me. They've practically dedicated their lives to it.

Hitting someone's knife hand with a bowie makes more damage than hitting someone with a baton - true. But is making someone the most damage your one priority or is it putting an end to the fight, giving you extra seconds so you can run away etc? For me I want to end the fight and/or look for an escape, I'm not out there to slaughter people. And a Bowie has more weight, and less reach - that's not what I call positive.

Also in reality I don't think people are prepared for actually chopping limbs of people... but hitting someone with a baton, most people would be able to do that.

As for bodyarmour, yes I read the posts about the vests, I guess the only way to protect yourself is by not getting hitted :-)

regards,
chariot
 
Chariot, it depends on what experts you are talking about. Jim Keating who as far as I know is considered an expert knife fighter, uses the Bowie alot to say the least. You talk to him about long knives and I am pretty sure you'll understand.
His website is www.combattech.com.
Check it out, you might learn something.

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Regards
Joshua "Kage" Calvert

"Move like Water, strike like Thunder..."
 
John Styers, author of "Cold Steel" and one of the originators of modern knife fighting technique considered the American bowie knife to be the optimum field/fighting knife. He particularly liked its ability to made effective arm cuts while maintaining a reasonable size and weight.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 07-12-2000).]
 
I often carry a 7" fighter, as a back up to my pistol, and to use around the farm. This gives me a chance to test my own knives and there handling characteristics in different situations.

Let me also say this, if 2 fairly equal combatants are trying to kill each other with a knife one has a 3" folder, the other a 7" fighter, the guy with the fighter will win.

Have you ever killed an animal with a knife? It is not an easy task at all even with a 9" bowie, more less a 3" folder.

I think we forget that killing is a hard thing to do, especially with basic tools like knives (even fighters). Your gonna get bloody, dirty, most probably hurt by the enemey etc.... Also, if your mind is not right, no matter what tool you are using, you wont get the job done. If you falter, you will lose.

Anything that makes it more effecient (more blade length etc..) is a welcome blessing in battle.

I havent had to use my gun or knife in a fight, and pray i never do. I have killed dogs that were man aggressive, and hogs. Neither was easy, so i can imagine how difficult it would be against a human that is trying to do the same to you.

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" The true way of the sword is the craft of defeating the enemy in a fight, and nothing other than this" Ibid

www.lameyknives.com

[This message has been edited by RMLamey (edited 07-12-2000).]
 
Yes but that's for field/fighting, not self-defense.

Originally posted by Jeff Clark:
John Styers, author of "Cold Steel" and one of the originators of modern knife fighting technique considered the American bowie knife to be the optimum field/fighting knife. He particularly liked its ability to made effective arm cuts while maintaining a reasonable size and weight.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 07-12-2000).]
Click to expand...

 
Originally posted by RMLamey:
I often carry a 7" fighter, as a back up to my pistol, and to use around the farm. This gives me a chance to test my own knives and there handling characteristics in different situations.

** OK, but that's around the farm, I live in the city. Carrying a 7" on me everyday wouldn't work very well.


Let me also say this, if 2 fairly equal combatants are trying to kill each other with a knife one has a 3" folder, the other a 7" fighter, the guy with the fighter will win.

** And if the other guy got a 9" and you got a 7" he will win? Doesn't seem to be an end to that situation...

Have you ever killed an animal with a knife? It is not an easy task at all even with a 9" bowie, more less a 3" folder.

** Nope, but I bet killing an animal with a life and using one for self-defense in a city environement isn't really the same.


I think we forget that killing is a hard thing to do, especially with basic tools like knives (even fighters). Your gonna get bloody, dirty, most probably hurt by the enemey etc.... Also, if your mind is not right, no matter what tool you are using, you wont get the job done. If you falter, you will lose.

** I agree.

Anything that makes it more effecient (more blade length etc..) is a welcome blessing in battle.

** Not if it means it will be hard to draw (due to crowded environment, you being on the ground, getting ambushed etc) and you will also have less speed and movement with a heavier, bigger blade. So for self-defense I can't see that bigger is necessary better.


I havent had to use my gun or knife in a fight, and pray i never do. I have killed dogs that were man aggressive, and hogs. Neither was easy, so i can imagine how difficult it would be against a human that is trying to do the same to you.

** Well killing isn't my priority, saving my own life is... and I can't see how a 7" can be better for the job than a 21" baton...

BTW do you reckon a bigger knife is better for killing a dog as well? they must come pretty close to you and then 3" would work as well as 7" ?

Regards,
chariot
Click to expand...
 
Just to be gruesome. The Manson family are known to have commited at least 4 series of murders with bladed weapons. In the Tate murders they used Buck model 110 folders. Even with helpless victims they found it very difficult and they complained bitterly. They seemed much happier at the LaBiancas' where they used carving knives and the other couple cases they used a cutlass. Have a nice day.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 07-12-2000).]
 
Chariot,
it seems that nobody told you yet the big secret about the BOWIE..
wink.gif

it goes like this..the bowie knife has a techniqe called backcut. this techniqe makes the knife move faster and deadlier than any edjed weapon,the baton techniqes you mentioned are largely based upon bowie techniqes.
i agree that in urban habitat like most of us live,carriying a bowie is exccesive.
however ask most knife instructors what they will want for a fight almost everyone will take a bowie.
so in your house or your car a bowie might come very handy for self defence.
i reccomend you order the combattech ABC videos [American Blade Craft]and you'll change your mind about big knives for ever.
i used to have the same views as you have until half an hour demo at a knife seminar made me re think the whole big knives issiue.
scorpio.
 
Chariot,

There are many good folders out there and I am happy to own several of them. Except for some of the low end models, most will serve adequately for self defense or for general camp use. We often rely on our folders because they are easier to carry in an urban setting, and because they are lighter and less cumbersome on our person.

Just the same you are really streching here. Given a choice on a fighter I would prefer to avoid folding knives all together. A folder is made to fold and regardless of the lock strength or blade length it will always remain a weaker design than a fixed blade of similar quality. If ,you plan to place this kind of load on a knife, then what's wrong with going with a large, fast, fixed bladed design.

 
Chariot, you keep insisting that a large knife is slower than a small one. I personally have handled some exceedingly quick big knives (BK&T Magnum, for example), and in fact it is possible for a large well balanced knife to be quicker than a small one due to the leverage advantage caused by the longer blade.
 
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