Randall's 440B...how good is it?

SkagSig40

SkagSig40

Joined
Feb 1, 2001
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Hi all, I was wondering if anyone knows how good Randall's 440B is for a using knife? My Parents gave me a Model 14 attack for my high school graduation several years ago and it has just been displayed for several years and I was thinking of maknig it my camping knife/using it hard. I hear that because it is forged is it tougher than most other staniless and will hold a good edge and not chip out easy. How does this steel compair to 440A and 440C? Thanks for any info!
 
It's not very good at all-in fact it's downright unsafe-but because I'm a good guy I'll give you $35 cash for the knife which you can use to buy a new using knife. Don't thank me-I just feel generous.
 
I suspect there is way too much handwringing about the "quality" of steel in blades. I'd be willing to bet that most of use would be hard pressed to tell one stainless steel from another in a blind test. Randall has used 440b for a long time and it seems to have worked just fine. Heat threat is probably more critical than particular stainless steel. I'd take a Randall 440b and use it without hesitation.
 
FLWRONG is joking with you. The knife costs at least 280$ according to Randals webpage www.randallknives.com I have personal experience with 440B,but in a factory made knife, the Gerber BMF.It´s almost the same as 440c,but with more chrome in it,which gives better corrosion resitance. Since it´s handforged,it´s raising the steels performance further. Go out in the woods and use it with confidence! This knife is made to be used outdoors.

Manowar
 
I guess it depends how you're going to use your knife. I'm not really familiar with Randalls, but I understand that if anything, they are COLLECTABLE !! Regardless of what steel it is. No doubt Randalls are made as using knives, so I expect them to be fully functional tools in the field.

IN terms of steels the 440-series is regarded as the "minimum" starting point that many knifemakers will use to make a quality knife. In fact, I can't think of any knifemakers who use anything short of 440C. Whats the difference ? I think a bit can be sorted out by looking at chemistry.

440A has the least carbon, 440C, the most. Ie.- 440C holds the best edge, gets the hardest etc.

By that same token. All have pretty much te same amount of chrome. With the way that carbon interacts with chrome in steel, 440A is actually more corrosion resistant than 440C. All are stain resistant, but 440A is just a bit more.

However, that simplest of chemical equations also means that 440A is "tougher" than 440C. The lower carbon content equates to a lower hardness, better ductibility and improved shock resistance esp in chores like whacking, ballistic cutting and torque applied to the blade.

440B is somewhere in the middle for edge holding, stain resistance and toughness. Not sure if thats the reason the Randalls chose it, but Randalls are battle knives - for combat, they need to be tough.

the 440-series are better than the low-cost 420-series steels, and not as good as the ATS-34/ BG-42 and pretty bad compared to the CPM wonder steels.

Can you tell the difference ? Personally, I think YES. Before getting into the better grade of knives, I used a lot of cheap made in Taiwan 420 SS blades and 440A blades, I also had the benefit of being able to compare with a $300 semi-custom tactical utility knife made by a local knifemaker in ATS-34 I'd bought later. THERE IS A DEFINITE DIFFERENCE.

I think that betweem ATS-34, BG-42, its hard to notice the difference if the HT is good, but thats because their threshold for how long their edges last is beyond the time frame for which I'd use the knife.

But on a 440A knife, I noticed that just working in the garden, household chores, eg.- cutting rope for ties - the 440A blade would lose its "crunch" on the rope after just 5-6 passes, then be actually quite dangerous to use after 20 cuts. Just slipping and sliding everywhere. Could still do other work but no more rope cutting. The ATS-34 knife (this was before all the cryogenic quench, multiple tempering stuff they do nowadays) held out to well beyond 3 times that number of cuts.

In short, SOME PEOPLE WILL NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE. In fact, so much so that the bulk of the people I personally know who own and use Randalls, use them all the time (some after 25years) and they all use the O-1 carbon steel Randalls. But if you're after a display piece and longevity, there's nothing like the reassurance of stainless steel. 440-series steels do take a nice finish, and of course it will serve you well if you had to use it hard, just don't expect it to hold an edge as well as some other steels people talk more about today.

My advice is that if your Randall is pristine, get more details about it and contact a Randall shop person. Organise a valuation of it. You may just want to put it in a safety deposit box !!

Jeez, my posts are getting longer and longer ... Hope this makes sense. Jason.
 
beluga, my understanding is that Randall has used 440C for Model #14's for a number of years, is using it in great abundance for all stainless models now, except for some ATS34 for some of the smaller stainless blades.
 
I bought my Model 14 from Van Sickle in 1970 just before I went back to Vietnam for my fourth tour. I continued to carry it on active duty with the 10th and 1st Special Forces Groups until I retired in 1991. It was stainless steel 440B and I never had any problem with it. Used it in temperatures down to minus 40 degrees F (or C) and very hot in Vietnam, Philippines and Brunei. Swam it on my web gear in Florida, just rinsed it off with fresh water, no problems with rust. Had to get a new beeswaxed sheath, although the old one would still work. Only thing I did not like was the handle, so had Wayne Goddard re-handle it in 1988. Liked it much better, made it slightly blade heavy, much better for chopping, which is what I used it for. New handle was brown linen micarta, that had a slight drop to towards the butt and no finger grooves.
 
Originally posted by John A. Larsen
I bought my Model 14 from Van Sickle in 1970 just before I went back to Vietnam for my fourth tour. I continued to carry it on active duty with the 10th and 1st Special Forces Groups until I retired in 1991. It was stainless steel 440B and I never had any problem with it. Used it in temperatures down to minus 40 degrees F (or C) and very hot in Vietnam, Philippines and Brunei. Swam it on my web gear in Florida, just rinsed it off with fresh water, no problems with rust. Had to get a new beeswaxed sheath, although the old one would still work. Only thing I did not like was the handle, so had Wayne Goddard re-handle it in 1988. Liked it much better, made it slightly blade heavy, much better for chopping, which is what I used it for. New handle was brown linen micarta, that had a slight drop to towards the butt and no finger grooves.
Click to expand...

WOW John! you really put her through the paces!
When I got mine I was under the impression it was made of 440B. That was in 1997 and ordered in 1996 or 1995. When did Randall change from 440B as they said if they knew of a finer forgable stainless they would be using it?
My 14 has a single finger micarta hanlde with a full tang anf the saw back teeth and a full brass guard. I just love this knife and I think I'm going to start to use her!:D
 
With the Randall knives being a real legacy, I wonder if the stainless models were made to cope with the Vietnam War stresses, instead of their usual O-1 blades. I don't know, I'm just wondering.

What I am told by a couple of guys who have previously used Randall knives in combat, is that they certainly used their knives hard; I was given a couple of nasty stories of actual hand to hand (plus knife) combat where the Randall made the difference. To put it into perspective, as a heat-of-battle weapon, I think the steel type matters little.

More important is the mentality and training of the operator, and other factors in the knife's design such as ergonomics, strength, edge and bevel angle, width and taper profiles. Not to mention the capabilities of the assailant.

Cheers. Jason.
 
Jason just about said it all but done correctly, 440C is about as corrosion resistant as STEELS come, even surpassing 440A. HEAT TREATING is THE KEY to any steel. 440B is fine but I can't imagine ANY stainless that surpasses another because it is FORGED! I think forged stainless is Randall hype!
 
You see, I'm not affected by hype too much these days. I'm aware of it but my Psychiatry background seems to have trained me to be a bit distant. I hear that Randall forges stainless and 440B would be relatively easier to forge than say D-2 or BG-42 (heaven forbid). Many of the large factory kitchen cutlery companies forge their steels as well, many of which are some sort of 440-series or 420-type steels.

Its not about saving steel, I don't think. We're not in the 1700's or 1800's anymore. BUT maybe its because they could have greater flexibility shaping their stock eg,- everything comes from round bar stock in way, way, way oversize eg.- 2inch bars (just an extreme example) so in terms of supply, you could just order a certain size bar stock and work on that - you could forge out any shape and size.

I think Gil Hibben also found that he had to forge 440C to shape when he first started with the stuff in the '70's because the 440C only came in specific sizes that were practically useless for knifemakers.

"Ease and efficiency of manufacture" is a relative thing, it can occur at stages that most of us don't consider relevant. I think this is a factor in the forging "hype."

Personally, I worry that poor forging techniques can result in degradation of these sorts of steels more than with other lower-alloyed steels. I'm certainly no expert but thats what's been drummed into me.
Cheers. Jason.
 
Jason is correct about Gil Hibben and forging 440C. At that time Gil could only get 440C in round bar stock. When I was in the hospital in Denver in 1965 I ordered one of his Jungle Fighters that was made of forged 440C, carried tha knife on my 2nd and 3rd tour in Vietnam and wore it on my door kicking LBE in the late 80's. Gil put a new handle on the knife for me in 68, replacing the leather washers, with an artificial washer. The leather ones shrunk and the butt cap got lose, since he put the artificial washers on it has stayed rock solid. My Jungle Fighter is marked "Ben Hibben" as Gil was in partnership with a man named Benidict for about 4 or 5 months when he was in Maniti, Utah. I had a very hard time sharpening that 440C blade. I was using a soft Arkansas stone, and I thought it was me, but the stone would just not cut that 440C. Now I use a Norton Fine India and that works fine. As far as the Randall goes, 440B was a good stainless steel when I got mine in 1970 and can still make good knives if the heat treat is done right.
 
Somewhere I heard that 440B was selected as a compromise to achieve decent edge holding with maximal corrosion resistance. Lower carbon content 440A would be more corrosion resistant while higher carbon content 440C would hold an edge longer. 440B was selected as optimal for the Vietnam climate. They also started to offer a lot of models with micarta handles since their traditional stacked leather washer handles were subject to mildew.
 
The 440B question intriqued me. Had a look and it seems more factory knives are made of 440B-type than I thought.

A lot of European-originated factory knives use a similar alloy. Namely the Spanish companies like Aitor and Muela who use a different one - ??? 440B Modified. It has the same carbon / chrome alloy but with some vanadium in it. I'd used one Muela knife xtensively in the late 1990's for basic outdoors work and it "worked." Most such knives are military styled.

Thought I'd throw that bit of trivia in. Jason.
 
Randall doesn't use 440b; rather they use a steel which they describe as comparable to 440b.

440b has less carbon than 440c and more carbon than 440a.

One cannot forge some stainless steels, such as BG42, because they require an oxygen free atmosphere beyond certain temperatures.

I imagine the steel that Randall uses has some quality that allows them to heat it to forging temperatures without it negatively interacting with the oxygen in the ambient atmosphere.

Randall would not put out a fragile or less than usefull knife.
They have a valuable reputation to protect.

Now I need to visit the Randall site to check out this ats-34 thing.
I probably should have gone there first.
 
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