Recessed portion of Panawal Blade

C

Craig Gottlieb

Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Messages
1,760
In response to demand, I am ordering more Panawals (the knife that's being raffled on the Gurkha House website). Here's a question: what is the purpose of the recessed portion of the blade? Here's the picture:

rafflebigtwo.jpg


I will ask Lalit. My cold guess is that they exist to balance the heavy blade.


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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Craig, if you are talking about the hollow grind in the top of the recurved section of the blade when you say "recessed", most of the khukuris that I have handled have all been ground like that. The 18"th century had a very deep hollow grind, its not as pronounced on the Sirupatis, and it is very visible on the AK's (which are similar in geometry to the khukuri in the picture except for the handle is not pinned).

I have also seen similar grinds on regular knives. Basically the grind is hollow from the spine to a certain length and then flat/convex along the actual cutting bevel.

On those knives I would just imagine that is just lets you have a thick spine and quickly get to a thin stock to cut better with. However on the khukuris the hollow grind usually comes full circle so its actuall more concave than hollow and the stock does not actually get thinned out. I would guess as you did and say that it removes metal so as to shift the balance point backward.

-Cliff
 
:
I think you both are probably right about the grind.One other thing that might be considered is the incredible strength this adds to the blade.

Having this type of grind adds considerably to the total area of steel exposed thus making it even stronger. From what I have been reading recently about some of the old broadswords the fuller in them done much the
same thing. I had never thought of the fullers adding strength and making the blade stiffer,just
that they made something easier to handle.

In the case of the Kuhkuris it is probably just for lightening,anything more would be kind of overkill don't you think ?
smile.gif


BTW Crag,that is a nice looking blade.
Do the pins go all the way through or are they just for decoration ? Also what is the length and weight of the blade? Thanks.
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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

[This message has been edited by Yvsa (edited 07 June 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Yvsa (edited 07 June 1999).]
 
Yvsa, thanks for the info and the compliment. I will pass it on to the khukuri, who will be happy you think she's so pretty. The pins are not decorative - They go all the way through. In fact, I should point out that nothing on these khukuris is decorative: they are nothing short of excellent, well-made tools designed to last a lifetime. It weighs almost twice what my Service Number One weighs, and is, I believe going to surpass my Bhojpure in chopping ability. And, as I mentioned to Cliff, the rosewood scale handle, I believe, will prove to be a real asset to the hard user.

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
It looks cool!

I'm not kinding.

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No, I was never lost. But I was mighty bewildered one time for three days.

--- Daniel Boone

 
Will: on the full tang thing - here's a question. Do you think that the full exposed tang is better for a khukuri than the full hidden spike tang common on the Bhojpures, SN1s, Ang Kholas, Sirupatis, etc? The reason I suspect that this kind of handle is better on a khukuri is: if the wood should crack during extreme use, you will still have the full tang to hold on to instead of a spike tang. One could wrap the handle with cloth or skin until one had the chance to get the scales re-applied. Being that the serious khukuris are taylor made for heavy use, this line of thinking seems to me to make sense. Any comments?
 
If the handle cracks and comes off then you would probably have much bigger problems than how to use it without a handle on it.

The tapered tang though I don't really understand from a maker point of view as surely it has to be easier to make a scaled handle so that can't be the reason. Its also obviously not stronger as there is less metal.

The only thing that I can think on is that it just allows max forward tilt with a specific blade shape. This is necessary to get any use out of the khukuri geometry. Of course you could used a scaled handle and just put on a bigger blade.

Bill has also stated that the taper is made as well because it reduces shock to the hand during heavy chopping.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, just to clarify (and I am not a knife maker, so excuse my ignorance of proper terminology) - The "traditional" handles I speak of I understand to have a full spike tang. The Panawal I understand to have a full exposed tang with scales. The only point I was trying to make is that perhaps the scaled handle would provide more durability. Handles can break, and if one did, I would prefer, if I were stranded somewhere, to have the exposed tang to hold on to rather than a broken hidden-tang handle. Personally, I like the hidden-tang style better. It's just that I received a comment from a customer pointing the above stuff out, and thought I'd pass it along.
 
While a full tang is obviously stronger than a tapered tang just looking at it alone, neither are a weak point that need to be considered as I can't see a break happening there unless something really went wrong in materials/construction.

I have broken handles before but it was usually a very dumb design. For example a very short (2 ") tang that was secured by one pin. It quickly snapped away from the handle after a little chopping due to nothing but the wood to counterbalance the rotation around that pin.

Back to the point at hand, while if I had to pick a khukuri without a handle I would want the biggest tang possible, I don't think its very likely that either a scaled handle or the traditional drilled handle would actually come off. Its certainly not something I would trade off performance under normal conditions for.

In making the decision from a makers point of view I would be interested in which one makes a better working knife. If both are about the same then the relevant question becomes which is easier to do.

-Cliff
 
Most kamis call this khukuri an Ang Khola pana butta. It is almost never seen in Nepal but is common in India. Most kamis feel the full tang transmits too much shock and moves the cg too far aft.

The spine in the chopping area of the blade is put there to actually move the cg forward for better chopping performance. The pana butta is considerably easier to make than the tapered tang handle.

Uncle Bill
 
It is indeed easier to make. As for the shock absorbing value of the traditional tang, I would tend to agree. I guess it's a matter of personal taste. I personally like the look of the traditional method of handle-making anyway. As for the CG being too far aft, only time will tell. Personally, I think these Panawals are very well balanced due to the heavier-than-normal blade - about a 1/2 inch thick blade at the thickest point. If it weren't for the recessed portion to balance it out, in fact, it would probably be to forward-balanced.
 
:
With all due respect to everyone and from someone who has made a knife or two in my lifetime I would like to add my thoughts. Perhaps clear something up about tang nomenclature also. I am far from being an expert.
I don't even like that word.
smile.gif


I believe that there are three basic full length tangs.

1st. is the solid full length tang that is the same thickness from front to back I assume like the knife in the pic?
This is the easiest of all tangs to make. On a very large knife or so short sword it can cause major vibration to be transmited to the wrist. I have an old German made Argentine short sword made this way.When you whack something really solid like a big hardwood chunk of firewood across the grain it hurts the hand and wrist unless a loose grip is used. Really good for those with Carpal tunnel.
smile.gif

It was made like this because it was easy,quicker and cost less to make.
Most all of the old military bayonets were made this way. The lowest bidder thing.


2nd.. is the "Rat tail" tang for want of a better word is the other one of the two being discussed here. A good "Rat tail" tang is more difficult to make.It saves weight and most importantly to those who didn't have a lot of resources,material.
Most of the finest knives all over the world have this type of tang.
Most swords had this type also to cut down on the vibration.
I have one of those fake Regiment kukris that has a blade length about 22" and I can hit the same piece of firewood the same way and it doesn't hurt at all and the vibration is nil because it has this kind of tang.

3rd. is the taperd tang that starts out the same thickness as the blade and tapers to a very thin edge at the back in a really well made knife. It is the same width as the the scales whatever the shape of the handle.
It also helps to change the cg forward a little and to save a miniscule amount of weight. This is also a difficult tang to make the scales match perfectly at all points and many makers use it to show off thier skill. The tang itself is the next easiest to make.
I also had one of the well known "government issue" Kukris that sell for less than $30.00. It had this type tang and was well done considering the price. It started out at 1/4" and tapered to 1/32" at the butt. I believe it was shaped to have two projections that the buttcap slipped over and then was swedged over.

This Kukri is on a par with the CS LTC that I have cutting wise. I gave it to my brother when I got my H.I. 15" Ang khola.
This Kukri and my CS LTC have vibration if you hit the same piece of firewood the same way. I have to say the LTC isn't as bad because of the Kraton handle which dampens it some.

I have one of the old Sami (Lapland) Puukko knifes that has a "rat tail" tang. These knives are known all over for thier strength and durablity under adverse weather conditions. I believe that all the old military Quartermaster
and field use knives had a version of this tang. The old Marine Kabars established a reputation for toughness so that all the knives of that style are generally known as Kabars.

The nice Persian engraved brass handled scimitar I gave my cuz for an old Mark 4 No.1 Lee Enfield that is a good shooter had this style of tang.
I used to worry about thier strength also. I have never broken one at the tang,but I did break a good knife one time across the blade by throwing it. I believe that thier strength is more than adequate.
I prefer the "Rat tail" tang now over any of the others. The beauty of the handle material is untinterupted also.
smile.gif


Perhaps this will help to clear up what a "Tapered tang" is, as I was taught anyway.
Thanks for listening.

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>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.


[This message has been edited by Yvsa (edited 07 July 1999).]
 
Ysva, great summary of tangs! The Panawal would fall in the tapered full tang category. I personally like the "rat tangs" myself for the same reasons. Still, I think that the Panawal handle is a good variation, especially when it's attached to such a great blade. I think I'll do some very casual testing of the Panawal and the Bhojpure and see if I can detect any "vibration" difference. My knife maker friend is coming over tomorrow, and we'll have a go at it with some wood in my back yard.

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
The hollow ground section at the back area of the recurve of the blade might be a variation of the I-beam theory, it removes weight without lessening strength.

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P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
PJ: Can you site a reference for said I-beam theory. Remember, I am a knife-making novice. I'd like to read up on this a bit if you can point me in the right direction.

Thanks.
 
Craig,

Try getting a copy of "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrisoulas. He took alot of flak for writing it, and it's a very encompassing book on making that's not too difficult for a novice to understand. Fortunately, we are blessed now with books, videos, magazines, that were not even imaginable a few years ago. Some things change better with time!

Take care,
John Johnson
 
Craig,

I think I would prefer the taper tang for a khukhuri done correctly. Its benifits were explained by Bill and Yvsa.

I have a CS Gurkha khukhuri, I think it is very close to being a full tang. If anyone knows for sure please jump in. Even with its rubber handle the khukhuri vibrates painfully. In the best case when I have used this khukhuri heavily for about 30 minutes, I find that it is too painful to continue after a rest break. Its amazing how much damage incremental damage than can be done without noticing it. In the worst case a single chop can send a painful vibration into my hands and I develop "khukhuri flinch". Me no like pain. I change my chopping style and simple release the knife just before impact. The G.H. and H.I. khukhuri's are noticably better in this regard.

The non-exposed tang has advantages in the winter. Heat loss into the tang can be uncomfortable when a knife is cold. However, I have not had my hand stick to a cold tang.

I agree that it would be easier to continue using a damaged handle with a full tang knife. As well, the full tang should be stronger.

I wonder if we can get the best of both worlds by strategically drilling holes into the full tang and have it completely enclosed by handle material.

Will
 
John, why did he take flak for writing it? Was it unconventional? Did it give away long-kept trade secrets? I will definitely see if the Library has it, or, if it doesn't, maybe Amazon has it.
 
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