Recognizable leather work?

[Redmeadow Knives]

Thought I'd start a thread on this topic as it came up briefly the other day.

There's too many to list, but in this subforum specifically Horsewright, Duramax and G2 come immediately to mind but there are many more and I would leave way too many out to try to list them all.

I've always enjoyed when you see a piece of work and recognize who made it at a glance without a logo needed.

Personally, as my leather skills slowly improve I still don't have a style but I am beginning to see consistency. Is that the first "phase" of a style appearing on it's own?

A lot of times it's a specific stitching, rivet, shape, texture, color, stamping, or all of them combined. There's work that people see and can't necesarily put their finger on it but they know who made it. The details come together and create their own presence even though individually those details may seem common. Other times it's a specific piece of the puzzle that screams a Makers name. The beauty of it is that both equally create that recognition and style. It can either be a side effect or intentional.

As a buyer does it matter? Does it matter if a Maker makes his own sheaths or farms it out? As a Maker do these things even cross your mind? Thought this might be an interesting conversation to have here. We can always move it elsewhere if need be.

John

 

[Horsewright]

Thought I'd start a thread on this topic as it came up briefly the other day.

There's too many to list, but in this subforum specifically Horsewright, Duramax and G2 come immediately to mind but there are many more and I would leave way too many out to try to list them all.

I've always enjoyed when you see a piece of work and recognize who made it at a glance without a logo needed.

Personally, as my leather skills slowly improve I still don't have a style but I am beginning to see consistency. Is that the first "phase" of a style appearing on it's own?

A lot of times it's a specific stitching, rivet, shape, texture, color, stamping, or all of them combined. There's work that people see and can't necesarily put their finger on it but they know who made it. The details come together and create their own presence even though individually those details may seem common. Other times it's a specific piece of the puzzle that screams a Makers name. The beauty of it is that both equally create that recognition and style. It can either be a side effect or intentional.

As a buyer does it matter? Does it matter if a Maker makes his own sheaths or farms it out? As a Maker do these things even cross your mind? Thought this might be an interesting conversation to have here. We can always move it elsewhere if need be.

John

Paul Long use to spend quite a bit of time here and he's another leather worker that definitely has his own style. If ya are unfamiliar with Pauls work just google it. There's gillions of pics and ya see what I mean about a style.

As to what creates a style, I think it would certainly be several things. One just doing a bunch of it will help get ya there. We all do things a little differently and that becomes part of the style with enough repetition. See I hardly ever do sheaths for the type of knives that Duramax works on. So he builds a lot of sheaths for that style of knife and builds a style at the same time. His work becomes recognizable.

Is it important? Absolutely. I cannot tell ya have many knives I've sold because of my sheaths. People google crossdraw sheaths or horizontal sheaths and my work come up along with many others. So I guess they look at style and choose me over someone else. Then they realize I'm a knife maker too and they just get the whole package often.

 

[Lorien]

it's really good to see people/consumers taking leather and sheath work more seriously. When it comes to sheaths, I'd credit Paul Long for raising the bar and drawing attention to this crucial part of fixed blade knives.

Two of my favourites are 8 Ball and Sobral/CAS- very distinctive and innovative styling

 

[Redmeadow Knives]

Great points Dave. Definitely familiar with Paul's work. Claude Scott is another one who's work screams excellence. Rick Marchand and Burt Foster immediately come to mind as well.

I've never thought about having a style, I'm still working out different constructions, maybe a style will come as a side effect one day.

One thing I've always hesitated doing is tooled sheaths. This year I've acquired a lot of stamps and have been practicing. I just made the difficult decision to convert my reloading area to a leather area. I was heavily into reloading before knifemaking.

Anyone think this thread might be better in General knife discussion to get more opinions on the subject? Just a thought.

 

[RayseM]

I like a sheath that looks like a sheath and not like a basket. I think I am in the minority. Your sheath work John is elegant because of your restraint. A few incised lines, perhaps a embossed symbol but otherwise "less is more". My favorite sheath maker on BF (along with Redmeadow) is Makael . His sheaths are rugged, subtle of detail and often, with un-conventional details. Yes, he does get called to do more patterning for different tastes but I think left to his own design he keeps a restrained hand.

 

[Horsewright]

Great points Dave. Definitely familiar with Paul's work. Claude Scott is another one who's work screams excellence. Rick Marchand and Burt Foster immediately come to mind as well.

I've never thought about having a style, I'm still working out different constructions, maybe a style will come as a side effect one day.

One thing I've always hesitated doing is tooled sheaths. This year I've acquired a lot of stamps and have been practicing. I just made the difficult decision to convert my reloading area to a leather area. I was heavily into reloading before knifemaking.

Anyone think this thread might be better in General knife discussion to get more opinions on the subject? Just a thought.

I’d do it in both if ya want. Not a bunch of cross traffic

 

[duramax]

I’d chime right in John but I still consider myself a newbie lol. I’m still trying to figure out what I’m doing lol !!!!!

Here’s kinda an evaluation pic lol
From left to right
One of my first sheaths, then came thicker !!!! Then as I gained some skill, some, still in progress lol. I’m getting to where I’m at.


I think my favorite sheaths are just plain janes. Of course I still like to overcomplicate things and overbuild lol !!!!!
All I’ll say is there’s great people here to offer you advice, Dave, Gary, Dwayne, to name a few. Listen and practice but build the sheath you’d want. It will all fall into place , your blades are recognizable and leather is following right along

 

[harronek]

In my humble opinion a makers recognisable style/ design / function only comes from output , time and volume.
As you produce more you tend to perfect and conquer certain aspects of production , the required outcomes and find what intrigues you .
I haven’t frequented the forum much lately, but I can tell in an instant if it’s Dave’s or Gary’s work for example .
Your own unique traits slowly develop and are always a work in progress.
I’ve always tried to adhere to the principle of assess / adapt / manoeuvre in all aspects of life , not just bending the Moo
The best creations I ever came up with were never seen by anyone because they were often mistakes that inspired a new avenue of thought.

 

[leatherman]

Duramax, that picture made me look back at a couple of early sheaths of mine, it is amazing how ones work evolves through the years isnt it? Even work I did a few years ago has elements that I have moved on from. Never stop evolving my friends!

 

[Horsewright]

Duramax, that picture made me look back at a couple of early sheaths of mine, it is amazing how ones work evolves through the years isnt it? Even work I did a few years ago has elements that I have moved on from. Never stop evolving my friends!

Had a Bit and Spur Maker friend try to buy Nichole’s spurs off of her boots. A long time ago Befor we wer even married I’d had him make them for her. She asked him why he wanted them. He said he wanted to cut them up and throw them away. He said it looked like Freddy Flintstone had made them! No they don’t but hopefully we get better with time.

 

[i4Marc]

What better place for this discussion than "Sheaths & Such"?

Sheaths often don't get the glory they should. It is more than just a place to keep the knife when not in use. It is an integral part of the knife ensemble. Leather is such a great medium. It can do so many things and express so many ideas. Good leather work is wonderful to behold. Guys like Dave, Paul, and John Cohea as well as plenty of others have developed very recognizable styles. Paul doesn't make knives so his sheaths reflect Paul's ideas and the efficient technique of a guy who has made a metric sh!t ton of sheaths. Mr. Cohea's style reflects the style and period of knife he builds. Since that is the genre of work he does, he became easily identified for that. Dave makes a lot of knives/sheaths too so his work is easy to spot. Plus he contributes and shares his work very often so we see it all the time which helps. But Dave also does a LOT of other leather tack and it's all excellent. But you literally see a thread (pun intended) that runs through his work. You see it in the tooling he chooses, the color threads he uses, the shapes he uses, the level of finish of the pieces and a host of other details. This comes together as style and it is identifiable at a glance. I still cannot wrap my head around how he makes all those knives...and sheaths...and tack....and does the range work....and has time to eat and sleep. I say his mom had triplets!

As far as whether or not it matters to a buyer, I can't say. I don't buy. As a maker it is very important to me that I not only make a sheath for my knives but that it is of the same quality as the knife I offer and that the design of the sheath compliments the knife. If I was just going to bang out a rudimentary sheath just to go along with the knife I would rather farm it out to someone who could do it well but efficiently. But I try to maintain control of as many aspects of the build as I can because my name is on it. I don't want to have half-assed work out in the world. I'm still improving and have a long way to go but I always give my best effort. And a well made sheath is very satisfying. It doesn't need to be ornate. It just needs to be well designed and well made. But more than a pouch to hold the blade, the sheath is an opportunity to make the knife/sheath package more than the sum of its parts. It is a way to extend design ideas from the knife and create a unified idea and statement. I feel, at least with a custom knife, that the sheath should feel like it belongs with a particular knife. It shouldn't feel generic as if any knife you dropped in it would look right. I have asked dealers/purveyors at shows what kind of value they put on (my) sheaths. I can tell you, the ones I spoke to did not value them anywhere near as much as the thought and attention I put into them. A lot of makers find making sheaths a PITA. Others see it as a business decision. Is their time better spent making a $600 knife or a $25 sheath (arbitrary numbers but you get the idea)? So they may choose to farm out the sheath. There are no wrong answers.

 

[Redmeadow Knives]

Well put, I mentioned posting elsewhere since not too many buyers frequent here and their thoughts would be interesting. I considered posting in General Discussion but figured it would get off topic too quickly and solid discussion would be lost in the shuffle.

I used too really dread when it came time to make a sheath. I finally became more comfortable with it and now enjoy the process. I like to keep as many steps in-house and for a while I wasn't sure leather would be one of those things. Now it's an integral part.

 

[Horsewright]

Great points Dave. Definitely familiar with Paul's work. Claude Scott is another one who's work screams excellence. Rick Marchand and Burt Foster immediately come to mind as well.

I've never thought about having a style, I'm still working out different constructions, maybe a style will come as a side effect one day.

One thing I've always hesitated doing is tooled sheaths. This year I've acquired a lot of stamps and have been practicing. I just made the difficult decision to convert my reloading area to a leather area. I was heavily into reloading before knifemaking.

Anyone think this thread might be better in General knife discussion to get more opinions on the subject? Just a thought.

Kinda interesting role reversal. I'd love to reload, actually kinda need to reload but have neither the space or the time.

 

[Redmeadow Knives]

Kinda interesting role reversal. I'd love to reload, actually kinda need to reload but have neither the space or the time.

I wish I didn't have to but my space and time is in short supply too and I really want to prioritize more leatherwork. This will open up 12 feet of workbench in a clean area.

 

[sheathmaker]

I think a maker's style kind of evolves over, really quite a lengthy time. I think I had developed (evolved) a recognizable style

When one day I thought to myself "Every thing I make looks just like every thing I make" and I shared my concern

with an old pro boot and saddle maker and he said "congratulations, you have finally developed YOUR style"

I think it is very important to develop your own recognizable style. There a 6 makers out there that I have tutored,

taught and mentored. 5 of the 6 have now developed their own distinctive style and they are REALLY good.

The 6th, not so much He copies my work still.

 

[Lorien]

What better place for this discussion than "Sheaths & Such"?

Sheaths often don't get the glory they should. It is more than just a place to keep the knife when not in use. It is an integral part of the knife ensemble. Leather is such a great medium. It can do so many things and express so many ideas. Good leather work is wonderful to behold. Guys like Dave, Paul, and John Cohea as well as plenty of others have developed very recognizable styles. Paul doesn't make knives so his sheaths reflect Paul's ideas and the efficient technique of a guy who has made a metric sh!t ton of sheaths. Mr. Cohea's style reflects the style and period of knife he builds. Since that is the genre of work he does, he became easily identified for that. Dave makes a lot of knives/sheaths too so his work is easy to spot. Plus he contributes and shares his work very often so we see it all the time which helps. But Dave also does a LOT of other leather tack and it's all excellent. But you literally see a thread (pun intended) that runs through his work. You see it in the tooling he chooses, the color threads he uses, the shapes he uses, the level of finish of the pieces and a host of other details. This comes together as style and it is identifiable at a glance. I still cannot wrap my head around how he makes all those knives...and sheaths...and tack....and does the range work....and has time to eat and sleep. I say his mom had triplets!

As far as whether or not it matters to a buyer, I can't say. I don't buy. As a maker it is very important to me that I not only make a sheath for my knives but that it is of the same quality as the knife I offer and that the design of the sheath compliments the knife. If I was just going to bang out a rudimentary sheath just to go along with the knife I would rather farm it out to someone who could do it well but efficiently. But I try to maintain control of as many aspects of the build as I can because my name is on it. I don't want to have half-assed work out in the world. I'm still improving and have a long way to go but I always give my best effort. And a well made sheath is very satisfying. It doesn't need to be ornate. It just needs to be well designed and well made. But more than a pouch to hold the blade, the sheath is an opportunity to make the knife/sheath package more than the sum of its parts. It is a way to extend design ideas from the knife and create a unified idea and statement. I feel, at least with a custom knife, that the sheath should feel like it belongs with a particular knife. It shouldn't feel generic as if any knife you dropped in it would look right. I have asked dealers/purveyors at shows what kind of value they put on (my) sheaths. I can tell you, the ones I spoke to did not value them anywhere near as much as the thought and attention I put into them. A lot of makers find making sheaths a PITA. Others see it as a business decision. Is their time better spent making a $600 knife or a $25 sheath (arbitrary numbers but you get the idea)? So they may choose to farm out the sheath. There are no wrong answers.

beautifully written, and as thoughtful as your other work!


I'm just getting going with all this stuff, even though I started awhile ago. I can't help but think that making my first few sheaths got me interested in making knives. You can learn a lot about knives by making sheaths for them. Having only ever made sheaths for myself and the knives I wanted to carry in the forest at all times of the year, my skill level manifest itself to me pretty quick! Rainforests are unforgiving with leather. Soooo many mistakes back then- some ridiculous head slappers.

Apart from a couple of those Stohlman(?) books you've all seen from Tandy or wherever, I always tried to avoid learning how to make a sheath someone else' way. Paul's dvd was recommended over and over but I'm so goddamn stubborn that tutorials seemed like cheating! Even still, at the time, I felt like I was making a huge mistake avoiding tutorials- I mean, some of the stuff I tried to make- oy vey! Terrible!

Now, looking back on all that, I can see that every error and mistake taught me something. Sometimes I learned over and over again! Gradually, I've overcome pitfalls by learning to avoid them and whatever I'm doing now, and whatever is to come, will be an honest reflection of that evolution. As free from external influence as I could manage- for better or worse!

While I look at a lot of other people's work, and critique it in my own mind, I really try not to copy what someone else does, or try to have any kind of style myself when it comes to sheaths. There will be a time when going deeper down the aesthetic rabbit hole will be fun, but I'm just getting competent at putting together a solid, clean sheath that has a good mechanical interface with the knife. It feels like I've learned enough on my own now to actually be able to learn from someone else. I can't say I would have had the mind for that when I started.

 

[i4Marc]

Lorien,

There is no shame in copying other people's work, at least in your formative learning phase. We are always learning. That never stops. But while you are acquiring foundation skills it is de rigueur. It is the way students have learned from masters for centuries. But after you have the techniques down and understand some basic principles of how to achieve good fit, solid construction and some of the nicer finishing touches, you should be able to apply those lessons in ways that are unique to your own ideas. The only exception to the etiquette of not copying other people's work seems to be the endless copies of Mr. Loveless' knives. But I digress. There is no reason not to borrow ideas and techniques from others as long as you assimilate those things into your own style. Besides, 99.8% of what we do has been done before. We're not breaking a lot of new ground here. But like "they" say, once you learn the rules you will understand how to bend or break them. That leads to style.........which will be applauded....and copied....by others. And around and around we go.

 

[Lorien]

I totally agree with you, Marc. In no way did I mean to impugn, malign or find shame in the practice of copying the master's techniques in order to learn them
Believe me when I tell you that I've done it plenty myself throughout years and years of art school

 

[i4Marc]

I didn't think you meant that it was improper for people in general. It sounded like you were kind of putting that restriction on yourself.

 

[Horsewright]

beautifully written, and as thoughtful as your other work!

Here! Here!

beautifully written, and as thoughtful as your other work!


I'm just getting going with all this stuff, even though I started awhile ago. I can't help but think that making my first few sheaths got me interested in making knives. You can learn a lot about knives by making sheaths for them. Having only ever made sheaths for myself and the knives I wanted to carry in the forest at all times of the year, my skill level manifest itself to me pretty quick! Rainforests are unforgiving with leather. Soooo many mistakes back then- some ridiculous head slappers.

Apart from a couple of those Stohlman(?) books you've all seen from Tandy or wherever, I always tried to avoid learning how to make a sheath someone else' way. Paul's dvd was recommended over and over but I'm so goddamn stubborn that tutorials seemed like cheating! Even still, at the time, I felt like I was making a huge mistake avoiding tutorials- I mean, some of the stuff I tried to make- oy vey! Terrible!

Now, looking back on all that, I can see that every error and mistake taught me something. Sometimes I learned over and over again! Gradually, I've overcome pitfalls by learning to avoid them and whatever I'm doing now, and whatever is to come, will be an honest reflection of that evolution. As free from external influence as I could manage- for better or worse!

While I look at a lot of other people's work, and critique it in my own mind, I really try not to copy what someone else does, or try to have any kind of style myself when it comes to sheaths. There will be a time when going deeper down the aesthetic rabbit hole will be fun, but I'm just getting competent at putting together a solid, clean sheath that has a good mechanical interface with the knife. It feels like I've learned enough on my own now to actually be able to learn from someone else. I can't say I would have had the mind for that when I started.

In horsemanship it' said that a lifetime isn't long enough to learn what ya need to know, thats why you have to learn from someone else. Even to this day Nichole will say I get it. Ya told me that 10 years ago and now I get it. That's what ya menat.

I think the importance learning from mistakes is often under looked, underplayed, dismissed whatever. If ya got your brain turned on thats when the learning happens. Course we don't always have our brain turned on. Sitting at the foot of a teacher is often learning without making the mistakes he made. Many years ago the CHP Academy in Sacramento had a huge banner across the front of its lecture hall. It said "There are only three ways of learning: 1) Through your mistakes. (2) Through someone else's mistakes, or (3) Not learning at all."