Recognizing an Al Mar fake

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jmfoust

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Is there any way of knowing if any of the several Al Mar knives for sale at a surplus shop here (Okinawa) are real. They are fairly expensive, and the symbol on the blades appears accurate. Thanks
 
Problem is much harder in the Asian market, as the company that made Al Mar knives for the US market bought the rights to distribute their own line of Al Mar knives. So you will see knives labeled Al Mar for sale that would never appear in the Al Mar catalog in the US.
 
But how is the quality? I also recognized some of the names of the knives as some of the older models I've read about here. Don't remember what they were though.
 
Originally posted by jmfoust
But how is the quality? I also recognized some of the names of the knives as some of the older models I've read about here.
Click to expand...
Quality is a hit and miss issue. Al Mar, before he past away, was strigent with the level of quality before he would sell them. And those models he didn't design, he wouldn't allow his logo to be stamped on them. So while they're made by the same factory, they may or may not match Al Mar's original quality standards, or are of models he designed. So, unless you know what he models were in th US, or be able to show us what you're looking at, it'll be difficult to answer your original question.
 
Well it's eleven years later, and the issue is still prevalent on Ebay, with obviously newly made older models (in my case a Medium "Special Warfare") sold under the Al Mar brand, but the name "Al Mar" is printed in plain letters on the very nice leather sheath, and there is no Chinese symbol instead as there should be on a US distributed knife...

I've seen a Grunt on Ebay with the sheath marked "Combat" (sheaths are usually the biggest giveaway for non-US Al Mar knives) and also "Desert Storm Commemorative" on the blade: That appeared to be slightly less well finished from photos, but still somewhat comparable in quality, and certainly very accurate in shape (probably from the same factory as the "originals")...

As another example, I had a genuine large 029/200 "Special Warfare" pre-production model, and I could compare its quality to the newly-made "medium": My old "bigger" Al Mar had a deeply off-centered point, bad enough that I would consider it a seriously defective product...: Yet I don't doubt it is genuine, as it came with the correct Eagle Sheath with pull-the-dot snap etc...

In absolutely every way the newly made "fake" Medium was perfect, and much, much better finished than the "genuine" Al Mar, particularly in the handle's polish and the way the pins were mirror polished and blended-in with the wood...: Blade-to-point was centered too... The bigger "real" old Al Mar looked downright coarse in the pin's transition to wood: Not bad, just nowhere near as good... The old one had wood with a brownish tinge, while the new "fake" medium has very similar wood with a very pretty greenish tinge: Even that looks better in my opinion, and the new "green" wood polish is higher and devoid of the slightest porosity, unlike the older knife...

$_57.JPG


I also got another "Pre-production" Al Mar, A 7.75" Shadow dagger, numbered and with the correct Eagle sheath, this time with the correct papers as well, and that one was also seriously defective...: A badly off-centered grind lines on one side: The defect was large enough to be off-putting, even to a novice... On the other hand, the polish was an incredible mirror job that was completely different from the satin of the production versions with leather sheaths: Another sign of its authenticity as a pre-production...

So that's for me two-for-two expensive genuine Al Mars exhibiting serious flaws that should never have passed inspection... From my experience, I would not at all vouch for the reliability of the US-distributed Al Mar inspection methods...

As to the fakes being "fakes", Asian distribution rights of the brand name was the property of the Japanese factory that made the knives for Al Mar in Seki: This to me explains the better-than-genuine quality you sometimes see on "new" old models: They are not true "fakes", if that makes sense... Here is all I know about it from an old post archived on a "Jerseydevil" thread:

"SERE - you have to understand that when someone says it wasn't 'authorized', and therefore 'fake', there's more to the story than that. The way I heard it - Sakai made the knives for AMK, both the knives sold in the US and abroad. Al Mar had the US distribution rights to the knives with his name brand as sold in the US only - Sakai had the distribution rights everywhere else.

When Al died suddenly, and his wife went postal on the whole flippin' knife community from the top on down; shuttered the business, fired all the US employee's, and left everyone involved with AMK in quite a lurch - Sakai didn't buy into her hissy fit. They had a contract, knives they could legally make under the original contract, and a business to run - and they did. That doesn't make the knives fakes or unauthorized in my book.

They probably figured that when Al's wife sold the business it would pick up where it left off, but it didn't. Part of the sale contract was wording that the new owner couldn't make the old style knives any longer, so he started making the new knife designs. But, Sakai wasn't so limited, and continued to make the old style knives - so, for awhile, you had old and new knives being produced simultaneously, both with the same name, but as/by different companies.

So, the new owner, in a roundabout way is going to say they're not authorized, not-legit, and fakes - and a few people, usually sellers of 'new' AMK products, are going to echo that position. Say it enough times and it almost becomes believeable - almost."

Gaston
 
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Hello Gaston, Excellant posting.. I agree with much on what you said.. I have MUCH experience in vintage AL MARS.. mostly from owning entire collection of preproduction al mars about 101 of them, and also buying any AL MAR I got my hands on to figure out something.. I have seen variations in grunts.. variations in many others as well.. I remember when i first start buying al mars i was buying/looking for different variations of the ALASKIN BOWIE.. here is what i found..
VARIATION #1- ALASKIN BOWIE with no etching of SEKI JAPAN
VARIATION #20 ALASKIN BOWIE with etching of SEKI JAPAN and full TANG(very heavy version-- Only seen 1)
VARIATION #3- ALASKIN BOWIE with full coffin handle(very hard to find)
VARIATION #4- cant remember..

In the end G.Sakai (mispelled) the authorized maker of AL MARS did what they wanted once AL passed.. Gary Fadden(new owner of AMK) was the one who put a stopped on G.Sakai selling AL MARS that were no authorized.. In my opinion Gary Fadden helped the AMK VINTAGE COMMUNITY... is

However there were many internal issues between Gary and the MAR family.. so this hurt the company in my opinion..

It is still a awesome ... I am falling alseep.. goodnight
 
Great posts but the two above give completely different scenarios. In the former, G.Sakai continued to legally, as contractually agreed, continue to manufacture and market knives with the Al Mar brand after his passing. In the latter, they were manufacturing "unauthorized" Al Mars knives by doing whatever they wanted to do after Al Mar's passing. I have heard both versions previously but never had enough interest to seriously look into it.
About the only thing that everyone agrees on is the high quality of these later Al Mar knives which isn't surprising
since they are made by the same factory. And Al Mar's close relationship with G.Sakai goes way back.
I was told by G.Sakai that Al Mar first visited them in the mid 1970s as a representative of Gerber.
Whatever the facts, the post-Al Mar AMK under Fadden did break that relationship and switched to Moki as the maker for the current models. And they certainly aren't making the old models.
 
Ken,
I have some good contacts with AMK and even spoken with a personal friend of AL MAR, and another of Mr.Fadden... My understanding is AL MAR was furious over certain issues with G.Sakai prior to his unforunate passing... I mean he was very upset on some issues.. G.Sakai screwed up!.. I even have spoken to a big knife dealer in JAPAN who states they cannot even sell vintage AL MARS in japan.. They did from time to time, but are not suppose to.. However i was told G.Sakai does have many parts for old vintage AL MARs, but its illegal to sell(this is what i was told)..

I then was informed Mr.Fadden set the record straight with G.Sakai and severed the ties to start up with MOKI... My understanding is if Mr.Fadden did not do this it would have lead to a huge illegal market of AL MAR knives MUST worse than it is now.. This may be the very reason vintage AL MARs are collectable.. Again my info comes straight from first hand sources..
Of coarse the badnews is Fadden and Mar family never worked out the issues and this is the very reason why AL MAR knives never continued on.. My understanding is there are some very cool AL Mar ideas that never gotten released.. Could you image the IMPACT AL MAR knives would of had on the market if AL was still around?? I could not imagine.. it would had been awesome!
 
Thanks, but as I said, I've heard that version too. I think originally from MS.
As I'm not an AMK collector it doesn't phase me one way or the other.
 
Do you have any links to your collection Dax? I would love to see those vintage Al Mars. 101 is quite an impressive number. I have about 25 vintage Al Mars, and my take on it all is, if it doesn't have all the vintage Al Mar trademarks, (while it may not be any less in quality) it is a harder piece to sell as a vintage Al Mar to a weary audience of collectors who are suspicious of them, I have seen Grunts sit on ebay for months with the stamp on the blades grind and a sheath stamped "combat".
 
If you become a member i can email u pics of my entire collection.. glad to.. I sold it due to babies
 
hey jimdo.. yes the al mar was legit, but the sheath was not a original texas shoemarker sheath that came with many pre death AL MARS IN MY OPINION, but yes that ver is legit.. fair price too..

the sog was little pricey
 
That's a Gold Titanwood Small Bowie made by G.Sakai Seki. Blade is Aus6, guard, pins and inlaid plate are brass. Quite vintage.
 
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