Red Satisal Wood

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I have a brief question and this can be moved to the cantina by a moderator.

Is Red Satisal Wood a type of Cocobolo Wood or Rosewood?

Thank you in advance.
 
I've was never able to confirm this but I do believe it is like Coco Bolo or part of the Rosewood family of wood. I've worked a ton of Coco Bolo and a bit of the Sastisal and it sure acts pretty much the same.
 
I've was never able to confirm this but I do believe it is like Coco Bolo or part of the Rosewood family of wood. I've worked a ton of Coco Bolo and a bit of the Sastisal and it sure acts pretty much the same.
Thank you Mr Joe! I sure hope you’re having great success fishing! But just getting away and relaxing is worth it all!!!
 
It's hard to give a definite answer. First, most of the common names of wood are language and region dependent. Second, even within a species or subspecies, there are regional variations from tree to tree, or at least from forest to forest. Third, without a microscope and expertise it 's hard to be sure about the identity of a particular piece of wood after it has gone through multiple steps: cut from a tree, milled into boards or smaller pieces, shipped to distributors, sold to retailers, and eventually made into a knife handle.

That said, the most likely scientific name for a piece of red satisal wood is Dalbergia latifolia, often abbreviated as D. latifolia. Cocobolo, on the other hand, is Dalbergia retusa, a category that includes Brazilian rosewood and North Indian rosewood. The varieties of Dalbergia differ in some properties, such as hardness, flexibility and even toxicity. Cocobolo is well known for producing allergic rashes in many woodworkers. I knew one guy in particular who worked in a place that sold exotic hardwoods. He told me that he was sawing boards of cocobolo, got the sawdust on his forearms, and it gave him a rash that lasted for months.

The last excerpt below mentions Dalbergia sissoo. Yangdu sometimes lists a blade with the wood named Sisau, which is probably a variant of Sissoo. Someone like Yangdu who deals with these kinds of wood all the time, and for many years, can probably distinguish the varieties on sight. She might even know the origin of particular handle woods, since she is in close touch with the makers (kamis) and their manager.

Here is one description of rosewoods in general:

Actually there are a lot of different woods called “rosewood”, however all of the true rosewoods are from the genus “Dalbergia”.

The original rosewood was probably Dalbergia Nigra, which has quite distinctive black grain or “spider webbing”. This dark grain will be where it gets the “Nigra” part of it’s name, Nigra means black in latin. The Dalbergia part is because the tree is part of the Dalbergia genus. Its named after the brothers Nils and Carl Dahlberg who lived in Suriname and who collected plant specimens and sent them to the botanist Carl Linnaeus in Sweden. As well as being a botanist, Carl Linnaeus was also a taxonomist who pretty much invented the modern “binomial nomenclature system” or scientific naming system. He was free to name the genus after his friends.


Wikipedia on Dalbergia latifolia:

The tree produces a hard, durable, heavy wood that, when properly cured, is durable and resistant to rot and insects.[4] It is grown as a plantation wood in both India and Java, often in dense, single species groves, to produce its highly desirable long straight bore.[4] Wood from the tree is used in premium furniture making and cabinetry, guitar bodies and fretboards, exotic veneers, carvings, boats, skis, and for reforestation.[2][4]

Under the Indian Forest Act, 1927 the exportation of lumber products from wild harvested D. latifolia is illegal.[3] There exists an international high demand and price for the wood due to its excellent qualities of having a long straight bore, its strength, and its high density.[4] However, the tree is slow-growing; Javanese plantations were started in the late nineteenth century, but, due to its slow growth, plantations have not expanded beyond Java and India.[4] Many once popular uses for D. latifolia wood have now been replaced with Dalbergia sissoo wood and engineered rosewood's, for economic purposes in cottage industries.​
 
It's hard to give a definite answer. First, most of the common names of wood are language and region dependent. Second, even within a species or subspecies, there are regional variations from tree to tree, or at least from forest to forest. Third, without a microscope and expertise it 's hard to be sure about the identity of a particular piece of wood after it has gone through multiple steps: cut from a tree, milled into boards or smaller pieces, shipped to distributors, sold to retailers, and eventually made into a knife handle.

That said, the most likely scientific name for a piece of red satisal wood is Dalbergia latifolia, often abbreviated as D. latifolia. Cocobolo, on the other hand, is Dalbergia retusa, a category that includes Brazilian rosewood and North Indian rosewood. The varieties of Dalbergia differ in some properties, such as hardness, flexibility and even toxicity. Cocobolo is well known for producing allergic rashes in many woodworkers. I knew one guy in particular who worked in a place that sold exotic hardwoods. He told me that he was sawing boards of cocobolo, got the sawdust on his forearms, and it gave him a rash that lasted for months.

The last excerpt below mentions Dalbergia sissoo. Yangdu sometimes lists a blade with the wood named Sisau, which is probably a variant of Sissoo. Someone like Yangdu who deals with these kinds of wood all the time, and for many years, can probably distinguish the varieties on sight. She might even know the origin of particular handle woods, since she is in close touch with the makers (kamis) and their manager.

Here is one description of rosewoods in general:

Actually there are a lot of different woods called “rosewood”, however all of the true rosewoods are from the genus “Dalbergia”.

The original rosewood was probably Dalbergia Nigra, which has quite distinctive black grain or “spider webbing”. This dark grain will be where it gets the “Nigra” part of it’s name, Nigra means black in latin. The Dalbergia part is because the tree is part of the Dalbergia genus. Its named after the brothers Nils and Carl Dahlberg who lived in Suriname and who collected plant specimens and sent them to the botanist Carl Linnaeus in Sweden. As well as being a botanist, Carl Linnaeus was also a taxonomist who pretty much invented the modern “binomial nomenclature system” or scientific naming system. He was free to name the genus after his friends.


Wikipedia on Dalbergia latifolia:

The tree produces a hard, durable, heavy wood that, when properly cured, is durable and resistant to rot and insects.[4] It is grown as a plantation wood in both India and Java, often in dense, single species groves, to produce its highly desirable long straight bore.[4] Wood from the tree is used in premium furniture making and cabinetry, guitar bodies and fretboards, exotic veneers, carvings, boats, skis, and for reforestation.[2][4]

Under the Indian Forest Act, 1927 the exportation of lumber products from wild harvested D. latifolia is illegal.[3] There exists an international high demand and price for the wood due to its excellent qualities of having a long straight bore, its strength, and its high density.[4] However, the tree is slow-growing; Javanese plantations were started in the late nineteenth century, but, due to its slow growth, plantations have not expanded beyond Java and India.[4] Many once popular uses for D. latifolia wood have now been replaced with Dalbergia sissoo wood and engineered rosewood's, for economic purposes in cottage industries.​
Thank you David for the “WORLD” of information! It gave me lots to consider and search out. It reminded me of the early 1970’s while active in martial arts, I was very much into nunchaku. Often they were made in a redwood or oak but I was able to locate some exotic wood nunchaku made from cocobolo and ironwood! I acquired several and still have them! The very best made from the Japanese Federation Association. I remember them being outlawed from exotic woods being imported. When they “clank” together, it sounds like bricks hitting together!
Anyways, thank you for the info and stimulating my memory!
 
You reminded me about a knife that I made about twenty years ago. I do a lot of work with wood (not professionally) but not metal, so when I decided to make a knife I used the hardest wood I could find. The hardest commercially sold wood is Lignam Vitae (ironwood), aka guayacan or guaiacum. Janka hardness 4500. For comparison, the Janka hardness of African Blackwood is 3670, Cocobolo is 2960, Purpleheart (which I love) is 2520, Hickory is 1820, White Oak is 1335.

From Wikipedia:

The belaying pins and deadeyes aboard USS Constitution and many other sailing ships were made from lignum vitae. Due to its density and natural oils, they rarely require replacement, despite the severity of typical marine weathering conditions, and also resisted jamming in their mortise holes. The sheaves of blocks on sailing vessels were made of lignum vitae until the introduction of modern synthetics.​

This wood is so dense that it sinks like a stone in water. It's very hard to work. You can't plane it because of the intertangled internal grain (you get tearout) and because it's suffused with resin (blades get clogged fast). I cut the rough shape on a table saw (small cuts, a little at a time). Spent many hours shaping the blade and integral handle with files, and finished with sandpaper. This was done over a period of weeks. More than that, actually, since I put it away when it was 3/4 done, and finished it a couple of years later. I shaped it as a Japanese Wakizashi (following the grain), but smaller, based on the length of my piece of lignum vitae. It's about 16" long, I think. It's put away so I can't pull it out right now to measure. Anyway, here are the obligatory pics, from my PC:

P8290009.JPG P8290010.JPG P8290013.JPG
 
Lignum Vitae Is some awesome wood! I have a mallet made of it. errr. I had one. I think I left it on the river? I used it for bopping castfish on the head on their way to the ice chest. Maybe its just mixed up in my camping stuff? I understand it was used for bearings on ships as well. Lots of good uses and great looking stuff. Nice knife David. I bet it would make a good Samoan war club too.
 
I couldn’t remember the name but my pair of nunchaku are made of that. That’s why I called it ironwood. They are solid as a rock!! I’ll post a photo to show both.
 
Ok guys, I told you I would post photos of 2 pair of nunchaku I bought in the early 1970’s. I don’t know if any of you have done this before but I hid them from myself....they’re actually playing hiding-go-seek! So I’m approaching 65, I usually have a good memory but......???
Now I’m on a quest to seek out and post photos!
I may not be back for 1 year but I’ll find and post! Geeessss!!!
 
Lignum Vitae is not the same as Ironwood. Its even harder if that's possible. Ironwood is also called Epai or Epay, not sure the spelling. It's extremely dense also and a very hard wood.
When I first started whittling grips and handles that's what I started with. A sliver of that stuff in your finger was instant agony. I don't recall where it came from but I had a lot of it at one time.

Years ago I put up a wood fence for an elderly lady. I didn't know what it was at the time but the whole thing, all the boards etc were ironwood. Couldn't drive a nail into the stuff. Don't know where that all came from originally either but she had it on hand, one hell of a fence.

George I'd give you a number for a good Ahlzeimers/Dementia doctor but I can't remember where I left it.
 
We used to have lots of sucker rods from old Pennsylvania oil wells around the farm when I was a kid. Hard as all get out. Was always told they were of ironwood. Wished I'd have saved some now
 
6AD4D9D7-9594-4927-AD74-454FB9D12318.jpeg 65521BB0-532B-4AFE-A8CB-6157DCFDD255.jpeg D416F23E-3FA5-42FE-9A3C-4EF5F5956A1C.jpeg ED61B123-6364-4AB0-A6B7-CF72B4C401A2.jpeg I finally located them! I called them ironwood because I couldn’t remember the name lignum vitae. Mind you these were crafted ? and sold by the Japanese Karate Association. They quit crafting these because of the scarcity of the wood. 1970’s era
Btw, the other pair are cocobolo
 
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Lovely to see, George, thank you for posting them! :thumbsup:
I posted them to save my sanity! I’m not sure if I’m a hoarder or have pack ratted so much through the years I forget where they were.
Of course I found them on a top shelf in a corner in a box. Fortunately I used a marker on the box “nunchaku”! Yes, I’ve accumulated a box full! I have many scars through the years of self abuse!
 
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My recollection & a bit of research: There are two types of Lignum Vitae. One is “true” and the other more commonly found for sale is “Argentine”. The trees are indigenous to the Caribbean and the northern coast of South America and have been an important export crop to Europe. Neither of them is “Ironwood” or more properly called Desert Ironwood which grows in the Southwest USA. I think you have to have a permit to harvest Desert Ironwood legally. I’ve used Desert Ironwood a fair bit (natural & stabilized...regular and Burl) to make handles for Nordic Knives. It’s expensive for sure but the best always is. I think I still have a pretty large piece of it somewhere.
 
Ironwood is a generic or common name used around the world to refer to different wood species with certain similar (but not identical) properties. Typically, ironwood is very hard and dense enough to sink in water. We could spend a month on this topic and barely scratch the surface. Even the exact same wood species might have somewhat different properties in different regions, depending on climate, soil conditions, old-growth versus new-growth, etc. The link below shows an article with a list of about 150 different wood species whose common or local name is ironwood. I found another long list of species that are called rosewood. When in doubt use the scientific (botanical) name.

Of course in a particular region everyone might mean the same thing when they say "ironwood"-- whichever species grows in that locality -- but globally it's a different matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironwood
 
I have a decking plank made of Ipe which is ironwood. That stuff is like Bawanna described and is super dense. Im afraid to run it through the planer. Might make one pass and eat my blades up? Talk about some great knife scales! I used it to make scales on an Aranyik machete and the extra added weight just made the balance so nice. Lignum vitae has a distinct intertwining of the grain between the rings that makes it so strong. Definitely the ones on the left but hard to tell in pics? I have a woodworkers mallet made of it and it seems to chip before it dents. It is about the same weight as Ipe. The real Lignum Vitae is listed on CITES and is hard to find nowadays. You can only legally get it as a finished product. It was common to find bowling balls and boche balls made of it. Bearings for ship propeller shafts were common as well.
 
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I have a decking plank made of Ipe which is ironwood. That stuff is like Bawanna described and is super dense. Im afraid to run it through the planer. Might make one pass and eat my blades up? Talk about some great knife scales! I used it to make scales on an Aranyik machete and the extra added weight just made the balance so nice. Lignum vitae has a distinct intertwining of the grain between the rings that makes it so strong. Definitely the ones on the left but hard to tell in pics? I have a woodworkers mallet made of it and it seems to chip before it dents. It is about the same weight as Ipe. The real Lignum Vitae is listed on CITES and is hard to find nowadays. You can only legally get it as a finished product. It was common to find bowling balls and boche balls made of it. Bearings for ship propeller shafts were common as well.
Actually the one on the right. If you look at some of the close grain photos you will notice the intertwining of the grain. But then again it’s not real clear in the photo. When they hit together it sounds like 2 pieces of marble clanking it’s so loud and hard. These were purchased in the early to mid ‘70’s! They quit production back then because of scarcity and we’re stopped from importation.
 
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