Refining Free Hand Sharpening Technique

Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
219
Hi all,

Fairly new here and to sharpening really. I’ve recently been doing a lot of reading on this forum which has been a massive help - as well as watching a huge number of YouTube videos.

I currently have a coarse DMT diasharp and a 2000/6000 water stone (not sure of the exact brand) that I bought a number of years ago. It actually has a decent feel and is fairly hard - not wearing appreciably under the knife and takes a while to flatten under the dmt. It also seems to remove material fairly well. It’s blue/white similar to the bear moo ones you can pick up on amazon.

Using this setup I’ve gone through my selection of kitchen knives - 10 in total - and it’s been quite amazing just how much I’ve improved in such a short time. A lot of this has been due to the advice here and tricks such as using a sharpie and a 20x loupe.

My last 3 knives have been shaving sharp after the coarse dmt and able to reliably push cut magazine paper both with and against the grain after the 2000. I also strop for a couple of minutes on bare leather after sharpening.

I guess the main reason for this thread is that although they are more than sharp enough for the kitchen, are retaining an edge and go through a cooked beef joint like a hot knife through butter they are still nowhere near hair whittling sharp. I’m interested in getting to that next step. I don’t really see much appreciable difference between the cut after the 2000 stone and 6000 stone.

My kitchen knives are cheapish faux japense (branded tsuki) which I believe are vg-10 with questionable heat treatment. I will be investing in some higher quality knives. I have my eye on a nice gyutou but I want to be able to properly look after it prior to purchase.

I guess my real question is that by continuing to refine my technique would my current set up and current quality of steel allow me to get to that next phase of sharpness (I think the answer is probably yes) or do I need to invest in some more kit. If it is the former, is it just a question or practise makes perfect or are there additional resources that would speed up the process? I consider myself someone who understand the basic theory (although the reams of information on strops and different compounds boggles the mind) but lacks experience.

I find sharpening by hand very thereputic after hard days work and I am quite willing to get there by trial and error but the engineer in me loves a good bit of research!!

Thanks all,

Craig
 
That's a good setup you have for most knives, but stropping on bare leather is just a waste of time. Adding some 1 μm or 0,5 μm stropping compound to your leather would probably be the easiest and cheapest way of improving the sharpness (and it should take only a few passes per side, not minutes).
 
I'd recommend refining your end-goal more so than your technique or kit. A hair-whittling edge is entirely unnecessary in the kitchen and you'll likely be disappointed at how fast it disappears under use. I also find a very smooth, polished edge to be too slick on food and prefer a bit of tooth.

Just some, uh hum, food for thought. :)
 
Understood

However useless in the kitchen it would still be nice to go to that next step just for fun! Should it be possible with what I currently have.

Some posters claim to have done it on a 1000 grit
 
Hahaha
It is interesting that I decide to restrain my self from my same old stick (= just buy an Edge Pro Apex and stop fooling yourself).
. . . and then I find myself wanting to bang the keys about the other comments :
My kitchen knives are cheapish faux Japanese (branded tsuki) which I believe are vg-10 with questionable heat treatment.
Yes better steel will make a significant improvement in the ease of sharpening if not the end result if a master sharpener were to do it. Still VG-10 properly heat treated is stellar.
For an eye opener go for some steel that tarnishes or rusts is my advice . . . see the monster below.
I don’t really see much appreciable difference between the cut after the 2000 stone and 6000 stone.
With the Edge Pro i.e. a guided system you sure as hell would see a difference.
I find sharpening by hand very therapeutic
William Glasser once wrote : Find a hobby or activity to do and do it as if your life and your sanity depend on it . . . because they do.
I just find hand sharpening to be too much like work (facing insurmountable odds with inadequate and ludicrous resources rather than just developing and using tools and methods that actually get the job done in the least amount of time with the least amount of stress).

stropping on bare leather is just a waste of time.
Hardly. Keeping in mind the FACT that I HATE STROPPING and never strop except for a few passes across my palm to see if there is a bur left to remove on my Edge Pro . . .
I must admit to the FACT that bare leather actually does snag and remove the very finest remnants of a bur. A little more research will bear this out.

A hair-whittling edge is entirely unnecessary in the kitchen and you'll likely be disappointed at how fast it disappears under use. I also find a very smooth, polished edge to be too slick on food and prefer a bit of tooth.
Generally that is true. I would ask the OP to cast his eye over my monster thread that we are slowly and inexorably stalking . . . just for an alternate perspective.
in the kitchen it would still be nice to go to that next step just for fun!
That's the spirit :thumbsup: :D :thumbsup: :D :thumbsup:
Should it be possible with what I currently have.
. . . errrrr . . . no
Free hand sharpening and . . .
fun
. . . errrrr . . . no
Edge Pro Apex and sharp edges like you are currently hunting : Yes !
Doesn't mean you can't rub the knife for an hour or so on the bench stones first . . . you know just to "get it all out" . . .
but then DO put the knife on the Edge Pro before you end for the day.
Win / Win.

PS : Oh yeah the link>>>> to "The Monster". I almost forgot.
 
I would suggest going with a finer diamond hone instead of the water stone for finishing --DMT red/600 grit. VG-10 responds well to diamonds in my experience, and diamonds can sharpen any steel. Water stones are great for simple high carbon steels but not high vanadium carbide tool steels (S30V etc.).
 
Your really going off topic. ^
Craig, if you want to go after a hair whittling edge, then do it. Not because it's so functional but because there is learning involved in the
journey. And this Forum is much about learning. DM

You mean "you're" rather than "your" ?
And your critique of my answers helped the OP how ?

My kitchen knives are cheapish faux Japanese (branded tsuki) which I believe are vg-10 with questionable heat treatment.
I suggested he try high carbon
=on topic

I don’t really see much appreciable difference between the cut after the 2000 stone and 6000 stone.
I said he would if he used a way to apply the 6000 stone with more care and control (a guided system)
=on topic
I find sharpening by hand very therapeutic
I recounted something I read once on how repetitive activity that one finds naturally calming and therapeutic is in deed, in the opinion of a world famous psychiatrist, . . . effective therapy.
William Glasser once wrote : Find a hobby or activity to do and do it as if your life and your sanity depend on it . . . because they do.
=on topic
I said hand sharpening wasn't therapeutic for me.
Opinion but
you guessed it . .
=on topic
stropping on bare leather is just a waste of time.
I said it was effective
=on topic
A hair-whittling edge is entirely unnecessary in the kitchen and you'll likely be disappointed at how fast it disappears under use. I also find a very smooth, polished edge to be too slick on food and prefer a bit of tooth.
I agreed but posted a reference to another perspective on the same topic from my personal experience.
=on topic
in the kitchen it would still be nice to go to that next step just for fun!
I said that I enjoy the same challenge and encouraged him to pursue HIS interest.
= ope . . . sorry . . . still on topic
Should it be possible with what I currently have.
I expressed my opinion and took a mild liberty for a stab at humor
but still on the topic of having fun (or not having fun) with his current sharpening paraphernalia but
= on the topic of his sharpening tools
which is . . . where we came in.
 
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Experiment with the 6000 more.
Practice with the DMT and use the 2k for the finish stone. this should give you a great all-around kitchen edge. For a strop you can wipe the waterstone on a piece of paper to collect whatever mud is there, let the paper dry and wrap it around the DMT for a hard backing. This method you will only want to make a few passes on the paper to refine the edge. Stropping on plain paper is also effective for removing small burrs.

Once you are confident with the edge off the 2k, repeat the process on the 6k. You will want to experiment using the waterstones, some of the finish grade stones don't produce the best edge unless used with a trailing pass and very light pressure. You can likewise reclaim any mud from the 6k stone on paper to use as a strop.


I normally consider an edge done when it can treetop a few hairs - this being short of whittling. Only on some of my woodworking tools will I take the time to get to a whittling edge and even then this is not often or normal as the retention and performance don't justify the extra time. Sounds like your basic technique is good, just practice and stop to observe often. Have a plan for what you want to achieve at each step.
 
Thanks all, whilst I can appreciate the accuracy and dare I say it perfection that a guided system has to offer, for me it doesn’t necessarily float my boat.

For me the enjoyment comes as much from trying to learn an age old technique that I can take anywhere with minimal equipment as it does from getting a sharp edge. This is not to speak ill of guided systems. I understand they also take a significant amount of skill to perfect.

I think what I’m hearing is that hair whittling sharpness should be acheivable from my current set up, although adding a little bit of compound will not harm things.

I suppose my current issue is not really having the experience to identify if the sharpness that I am achieving on (for instance) the 2k stone is because the stone is the limiting factor or if my technique is the limiting factor. I’ve not not really found an answer to this question from my research.
 
I don't think you could easily whittle hair from a 2k stone. That's about 8 micron, which should produce decent polish, but I don't think it would be easy to get a clean enough edge from that to whittle. But I've never made a hair whittling edge, so my opinion is just an opinion. On the other hand, a 6k stone should be able to do this I would think.

Murray Carter has produced a face shaving edge from a 6k stone on video and done a good number of other "tricks" from just a simple two sided waterstone; usually King brand. Carter advocates ONLY doing edge trailing strokes on the higher grit stone and seems to get good results doing it.

Good luck to you.

Brian.
 
Thanks all, whilst I can appreciate the accuracy and dare I say it perfection that a guided system has to offer, for me it doesn’t necessarily float my boat.

For me the enjoyment comes as much from trying to learn an age old technique that I can take anywhere with minimal equipment as it does from getting a sharp edge. This is not to speak ill of guided systems. I understand they also take a significant amount of skill to perfect.

I think what I’m hearing is that hair whittling sharpness should be acheivable from my current set up, although adding a little bit of compound will not harm things.

I suppose my current issue is not really having the experience to identify if the sharpness that I am achieving on (for instance) the 2k stone is because the stone is the limiting factor or if my technique is the limiting factor. I’ve not not really found an answer to this question from my research.

You're a lot like me in sharpening for the enjoyment and just wanting to try and learn new techniques. I have a benchstones, a Worksharp belt system and a Wicked Edge guided system. While the Wicked Edge and Worksharp are very good tools and give great results, I still really like freehand sharpening. Like you, I find it really relaxing and a stress reliever.

I have to agree with a couple others above. Put some more time into the 6K stone and refined your skill there. Trailing strokes has worked well for me. I have gotten hair whittling sharp edges from time to time on my Shapton Glass 6K stone. It's not easy but it can be done. I think if I really put more time and effort into it, I could probably get them routinely. As mentions, trailing strokes really help IMO.
 
(...)
For me the enjoyment comes as much from trying to learn an age old technique that I can take anywhere with minimal equipment as it does from getting a sharp edge. This is not to speak ill of guided systems. I understand they also take a significant amount of skill to perfect.

The underlined comment in the quote above^ describes what drives me in trying to get better. The acquired skill set is what will drive success in the long run, and it's what will make the use of any stone or equipment more productive and fun as well, whether with a guided system or not.

(...) I suppose my current issue is not really having the experience to identify if the sharpness that I am achieving on (for instance) the 2k stone is because the stone is the limiting factor or if my technique is the limiting factor. I’ve not not really found an answer to this question from my research.

The 2nd underlined comment is something that I've also revisited repeatedly, as my skills improved. I've found over time and with practice, that what I once thought was an equipment shortcoming was more related to my lack of understanding of how to get the best out of it (proper use of pressure, choosing the right abrasive type for the steel, the right starting grit for the task, etc). So after some quality practice time and effort, each time I've gone back to trying a stone or other tool that didn't work for me some time ago, I've found it's easier to use now and with much better results. I make it a priority to circle back around to the same old gear many times, and see how my skills with each tool have improved (it almost always does improve). I'm glad I never completely gave up on some of my old 'defective' stones and other tools, as they're now working much, much better than they used to. That's a pretty strong clue as to what the original problem was, in my learning path. ;)
 
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Thanks all, whilst I can appreciate the accuracy and dare I say it perfection that a guided system has to offer, for me it doesn’t necessarily float my boat.
Here you go . . .
I don't know if you have seen me mention her here but SHE is known here as The Chef.
She left out a knife yesterday and asked me to sharpen it.
I don't even recall her saying that so naturally I'm in deep doo doo now.
She said THIS KNIFE IS DULL !
I said I'll sharpen it.
She said that's what you said yesterday.
(hell I'm happy . . . there is a foot of snow out side and work is closed and it's Monday)(what's not to like ?)

I was posting here so I hesitantly got out of my cockpit (living room couch) and felt the edge on my thumb nail . . .
I said hmmmmmmm . . . did you know this knife is getting pretty dull ?
I didn't gain any points there and had to do something quick like a bunny.
No not that.

I quickly drew my Spyderco Ultra Fine Triangular Ceramic rod.
Leapt across the room with the knife to the living room lamp, put on my jeweler's visor that I keep strategically placed near by at all times (except when it is down in the work shop).
Free handed mind you . . .
Free handed I say . . .
(no Shaprmaker holder)
Free handed I started in . . . sweating under her I've had about enough of this BS gaze.
I made that up. She's super sweet and very . . . very . . . tolerant. Well you would have to be to live with me under the same roof . . . or even in the same neighborhood . . . why I remember once there was this big explosion and . . .

. . . sorry got a little off track there.

Short story long I took a few swipe on the edge using the rounded corners of the triangle rod to raise the slighted bur and fix one particularly dull area an inch behind the tip then I used the flats of the triangle to refine the edge and take off the bur.

Hair whittling . . . just like you asked for.
By the by this rod works better than anything I have on M4 when the edge isn't damaged but just needs a bit of touch up. I'm talking tree topping.

YMMV :) (it's not the easy way but it's The Cowboy Way)
(The easy way being the Edge Pro)
There . . . yah happy :) :) :) (I am . . . did I mention it is Monday and I'm off ? )

The knife was this knife Link>>>>>
PS: I've owned and EDCd this knife for forty years. Either in a cardboard sheath in my back pack while I was . . . shall we say . . . mobile and now it is theeee number one knife The Chef uses every single day multiple episodes of home cooking every day. That an a couple of less used long honkers. Mostly this one though.
If I were not using the Edge Pro for it's main sharpening and going to the stones free hand it would have worn out by now ;) :cool: :mad:

The triangle rod looks like this Link>>>>
 
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Hi,
What degrees per side?
What kind of hair are you trying to whittle?

Can you push cut , in both directions/orientations, thinner paper, like yellowpages/phonebook/catalog?


Since you can push cut some kind of paper,
you should be very close to whittling,
within ~10-30 passes per side close


my advice flush your 2000 and 5000 grit stones so they have no mud/slurry,
increase the angle by 5 degrees, and do
5 times 1 pass per side on the 2000 side
5 times 1 pass per side on the 5000 side,
using ultra light force,
under 100 grams/~3.6oz,
"ideally" under 1oz/~28grams
edge leading pass,
short travel (1inch strokes, usually only need for extreme end of burry steel)

then try whittling
If it doesn't work, go back to original not +5 angle,
go back to 2000 stone,
and do some 10-20 alternating passes per side,
then onto 5000 stone and 10-20 alternating passes per side,
then try the +5 angle steps again


Its just a matter of figuring out where you're at and what you need to adjust, one stone at a time , no strops :)
Taking notes of what you're doing exactly helps, esp with questions




Got any "razor" blades (double edged safety razor blade, olfa utility knife, havalon piranta utility knife...)?
Beard hair is usually thicker and easier to whittle than head hair.
If you've doubts about your hair being whittleable, or never done it before, use a razor/uitlity knife.
Both should be able to whittle one of your hairs or better.

Often utility razors come with a burr wont whittle,
but they will after one or two passes per side at higher angle ( 15-20dps )


Alternative to whittling head hairs is push cutting cigarette rolling papers, cutting sewing thread on a food scale/gram scale


See minimum-grit-or-micron-hair-splitting.1493089

See does the edge have to be mirrored to be in the razor sharp category? Mirror polish not required...

See https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/hair-whittling-sharp-how.1584201/page-2#post-18100651

See sharpness-chart.1535016/page-4#post-17691270

See coticule.be/hanging-hair-test.html
* DMT-C (325grit): HHT-3, without prior nuances

thats HHT3 - head hair half inch catch'n'pop
with a straight razor
low angle (~7dps)
clip on angle guide (built-in)
 
Thank you for the advice and links to read. I’ll definitely experiment as suggested. Just for reference I’ve been using non glossy thin magazine paper. Only hair I’ve experimented with is head hair and angle is 20 dps (factory)

Cheers
 
Why do you say no strops out of curiosity? Is the potential to cover up short comings in the sharpening process?

If there are shortcomings in the sharpening process, stropping generally won't fix them anyway. The key to making stropping work well is to do all that can be done on the stones first. THEN, just enough stropping done with an appropriate compound and a good touch can enhance sharpness at the edge.

Even without compound, on bare leather or denim or paper, stropping can 'clean up' the edge of hanging remnants of burrs that otherwise would literally get in the way of clean, effortless cutting. That would be enough for most uses, IF your stone work was as good as it can be, or very nearly so.

There's justification also in saying stropping doesn't necessarily need to be done all the time. There's something to be said for improving one's skills with stones to a point where stropping is rendered essentially moot. I shoot for that goal as often as I can, and am happy & proud when I see my edge doesn't need it after the stonework. But even then, I usually still give the edge at least a pass or two on a bare leather belt or on my jeans, just to see if there's a little more enhancement to be tweaked out of it. No harm in that.

Bottom line, stropping has value; but only if & when the edge is ready for it. Knowing when to STOP stropping is key also, as there's usually a point beyond which any more stropping might be counterproductive and could degrade sharpness. The downsides of stropping can come by overdoing it with too many passes, or at too steep an angle, or applying too much pressure on a compressible substrate with compound, which can round off the apex or overpolish it, taking desirable 'bite' out of the edge.

Stropping is essentially no different than sharpening on stones, in that it can help you improve sharpness or degrade it, depending on how you apply it and how skilled your touch is.
 
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Why do you say no strops out of curiosity? Is the potential to cover up short comings in the sharpening process?

In addition to what Obsessed with Edges said

Well the squishyness of squishy abrasive strops can covers up short comings in angle control , it increases angle -- you can do the same with just the stone ,
that is basic refinement of technique, a light touch at increased angle


Ever watch videos on youtube?
Ever watch a guy,
go through an entire lineup of shapton stones,
then after the final stone, an expensive 30,000 shapton,
he spends 10 minutes slapping the knife on his denim apron :confused:

Ever see a guy use new stone to "sharpen" a knife?
The last thing he does before cutting anything
is spend 5 minutes on some kind of pasted strop o_O

They never try to remove burrs using the stone that created them , the most direct approach.
10 minutes stropping or 10 strokes on a stone? a sharpening stone is a deburring stone
 
What kind of hair are you trying to whittle?
Hahaha
I was going to say "Who cares ? What diffence does it make?" Then I remembered my hair cutter. I told her my knives and woodworking tools would cut little curls off arm hair.
She said "AWWWWW BULLLSHEEET ! "
(She's an army vet.)
I was a little taken aback because there was no question in my mind they would.
Plus
she handles straight razors all the time in her work.
Why is she saying this ?
She proceeded to spend about a quarter of an hour with my jeweler's visor on gazing at her arm hair and trying to shave curls off them. (she comes to my home to cut my hair).
Good thing I didn't put any money on it ! ! !
Turns out the gal has arm hair like a spider's web thread.
I had to do a little edge touch up and she still wasn't convinced.
o_O :( :confused:
 
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