Reproduction WW2 Marine Raider Stilettos

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Mar 14, 2022
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As I was working on my WW2 blade collection, I unexpectedly became interested in high quality USMC Raider Stiletto reproductions such as those once offered by Camillus Cutlery, HG Long, Case Cutlery, and commissioned by the Marine Raider Association/Historical Associates. These are much more affordable than the original stilettos with the added benefit of being more amenable to frequent handling. Here are the four I have been able to study and compare:

#1. Camillus Cutlery New York: U.S. Marine Raider Stiletto (Ltd edition of qty 2,000).
Sometime around 1967, the original maker of the genuine 1942 classic that was issued to USMC Raiders, Paramarines, and Canadian Patatroopers, found a barrel of new old stock (NOS) high-carbon stamped tool steel blades. They meticulously ground these blanks into the original double-edged diamond profile with a needle tip and mated them with an improved pewter handle cast from molds made with an original specimen now preserved in the Raider Museum in Richmond. As such, this knife exhibits exacting details of the original WW2 stiletto including all handle relief patterns and even the rather shallow etched “USMC” and “Camillus Cutlery Co Camillus New York” maker’s mark on the same side of 7-1/8 inch blade. The blade is darkened and these etchings are in gold rather than in black as was found on the bright blade of the original stiletto. The M6 style leather sheath is light brown. A red velvet-lined lockable oak and glass display box was included. Apparently, a similar model was made in the 90’s before Camillus closed shop for good in 2007, using newly manufactured blades but with the Camillus logo replacing the USMC etching. Neither of these are currently in production.

#2. HG Long of Sheffield England: Officially Authorized Marine Raider Commemorative Edition (Ltd to 2500). This is not as true to original details as the Camillus, but it is an elegant and very nice stylized late 20th Century version offered by a famous British manufacturer of Fairbairn/Sykes style Commando knives. This is appropriate because the Original USMC Raiders have roots in the WW2 Commando Training Center in Scotland. I am not sure why HG Long was chosen at the time the Raider Association commissioned them, but Camillus has since closed up shop. The 6-7/8 inch bright blade is more of a spear-point than needle tip as found in the original. There is a fantastic and high relief “USMC” etching on one side of blade and the HG Long Maker’s Mark on the obverse side of blade, reminiscent of the Wilkinson’s Sword F/S models. A detailed miniature 1st MAC Raider insignia is inlaid with enamel into an amazingly beautiful Sterling Silver-plated pewter handle. The blade is serialized and came with a signed Certificate of Authenticity, and a dark Walnut storage box also exhibiting the Marine Raider MAC Patch likenesses inside and out. A quality red velvet liner nicely accents the ensemble. The M6 style sheath is brown leather. These were often presented to individual Marines and units such as Force Recon by the Raider Association prior to the founding of MARSOC. No longer in production.

#3. Historical Associates of Richmond Virginia:
Marine Raider 75th Anniversary Edition Stiletto. This one is sort of a hybrid of the first two. On one hand, it is true to the original Camillus style form overall but with the addition of a special 75th Anniversary etching on the double-edged stainless steel blade. Like the other HG Long version above, this one has a maker’s mark on the opposite side of the blade. Also like the Camillus version above, this hilt is individually hand cast with a half pound of improved pewter alloy using an in-house mold made from an identified authentic WW2 Raider Stiletto. An oak storage case is available as an added accessory. This knife is still available for purchase, but is hand made to order and takes several weeks. They also offer an outstanding Raider pictorial essay book titled, “ Our Kind Of War” that details nearly everything about America’s Original Special Operations Commando Force, the U.S. Marine Raiders.
(http://www.historicalassociates.com/75th AnniverStiletto.htm)

#4. Case Cutlery XX:
Marine Raider Commemorative Edition. Apparently, Case was in the running for the original 1942 government contract but lost out to Camillus for the Marine issued Stiletto. Apparently, some “proof of concept” models were actually made and submitted during the war, so it is fitting that this commemorative model exists for comparison of what could have been. Of course, Case made many other important WW2 knives, including the legendary V42 Stiletto issued to the joint U.S./Canada First Special Services Group (Black Devils). The style of this commemorative is quite elegant and more faithfully evokes the British F/S Commando Stiletto than does the Camillus model. This is particularly true in Case’s use of a substantial eye-catching ricasso where the 7-1/4 inch blade meets the hilt. This model often has a Pearl Harbor etching or some other commemorative logo and may still be available upon request from Case Cutlery, but I’m not sure. Arizona Custom Knives used to make a similar knife as well.

Conclusion:
Although I am clearly partial to the Commemorative models that are truest to the genuine issued Raider pattern, these are all very nice, high quality reproductions. IMHO, they are all well-worth the $300+ investment because of the exhibited workmanship, history, and durability. These knives all have the knurled “Coke bottle” handle as originally designed by Marine Colonel Shuey, and are of presentation and display quality. They will likely outlast the wartime issued USMC Raider Stilettos given the known durability issues with the original blades and handles. Fortunately, both the Camillus and the Historical Associates models were made with molds created from the originals and they may provide a template for recasting the original Zinc Alloy handles if they continue to deteriorate as they approach nearly a century of existence. Perhaps through purification of the crumbling remnants or the addition of pewter or Titanium to the remaining original alloy will ensure that the iconic originals and the heroic warriors they represent live on into infinity.

USMC Raider Commemorative Stilettos
 
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Wow, it seems you have most definitely done your homework on these 👍👍

I own one of the ones that you described first in your list 👍🇺🇸👍

20220507_081848_(1).jpg

I don't see it up for sale much. The $300 range was the norm, don't know if they are still there, since everything is running higher nowadays.

When I purchased it, one thing I found pretty cool about it was it's handle being made of solid pewter 👍

Terrible what is happening to the original zinc handles... It seems they will all head that way if something can't be done about their deterioration 😔
And, those original specimens ain't cheap! 😱

I like that my commemorative was made by Camillus Cutlery, which, of course, made the originals 🇺🇸
 
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The deterioration of the original issued wartime stilettos is one of the main reasons I became interested in these reproductions. I wanted to fully understand what was happening to the originals and brainstorm some solutions based on improvements implemented by the reproduction methods. I have since come across some less than perfect originals and I am optimistic that those specimens that are still largely intact can be saved.

Of course proper storage and handling is at the top of the list, but I have started researching some other active preservation tactics as well. For example, I use anti-humidity packets in my storage drawers, I wear cotton or Nitrile gloves to avoid oils and perspiration, and I ensure that all rust and corrosion is arrested without any harsh abrasives, chemicals, or other potentially harmful action. I also use Water Displacement lubricant (WD-40) to remove rust and protect the blades without removing the natural patina.
 
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With knives, it is important to stop at preservation and not venture into repair or modification without expert involvement. Therefore, I have never attempted to repair a crack in a handle, to sharpen, or to reshape a broken Raider Stiletto blade or tip. If I ever do foray into advanced preservation, it will be done on the advice of an expert knife collector and accomplished professionally by hand to avoid heating up the blade or further damaging the Zinc hilt by chemical, thermal, or physical action. It is important that we all adhere to this ethical principle.

That said, we can’t sit idly by as these relics deteriorate. I have been researching the properties of Zinc Aluminum Alloys and have come to believe that the Zinc Rot or “Zinc-pest” that threatens these magnificent pieces of history may not affect all of the remaining intact Raiders. All remaining specimens of the original 14k are 80 years old and it has been determined that the problems lie with impurities like lead that were mistakenly introduced into some batches of the alloy, but perhaps not others. These impurities disrupt the crystalline structure of the otherwise stable alloys used, a flaw which is greatly exaggerated with the introduction of moisture at the surface. These issues are well-known in the Zinc Alloy train and collectible toy circles and have been studied for years and not all cast Zinc batches are equally affected.

I once acquired an original Raider Stiletto that was a very nice specimen, but was showing signs of pitting and some really ugly Zinc corrosion on the periphery and underside of the hand guard. Believing that leaving this corrosion to spread would doom the knife, I rubbed it with some fine steel wool just to see what the substance was and how deep it went. I was surprised to find that the corrosion was largely superficial and came off rather easily, leaving a beautiful shiny and polished Zinc luster. One of the uglier pits even seemed to self-heal with the heat applied by friction from the fine steel wool.

Naturally, Such a dramatic reaction frightened me and I decided to stop pushing my luck despite it being a positive change possibly involving the rather low melting point of the zinc alloy. I have a degree in Anthropology/Archaeology and I have some experience with military equipment preservation, however, I am not a metallurgist, materials scientist, or even a true preservation specialist. I would never want to trigger an irreversible change in a relic without the proper supervison from such experts. However, Zinc, Magnesium, Aluminum, and Copper Alloys (ZMAC) have unique characteristics that can be studied and manipulated to overcome the problem of brittle handles and we must begin to engage in this discussion before it is too late.

Even handles that have already cracked and crumbled should be resurrected in such a way to preserve the maximum amount of material through elemental purification and supplementation rather than throwing away the seemingly worthless materials. The addition of durable metals like pewter and Titanium to Zinc alloys greatly enhance the strength and resilience of Zinc alloys. I believe a consensus can be reached on how to properly address this issue when it manifests itself.
 
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So even if all these Raiders do eventually crumble, I believe recasting them in original molds like those used for the above commemoratives would serve to preserve the original base materials and would therefore be better than nothing. This is why I am excited that casting molds of the originals are still being used to make fine replicas. The word needs to get out so that as we come across these damaged artifacts, they are given the best preservation possible.

I am further encouraged by the fact that industrial coatings have come a long way since WW2. Moisture can be locked out and materials can be strengthened better than ever before. A time may come when some of these at-risk stilettos may need to be permanently protected from moisture or otherwise strengthened with electroplating or micro-crystaline lubricants. A thin Vaseline coating has already been identified as a possible way to delay cracking but I have not tried it yet myself because I fear doing harm, staining, or otherwise reducing value. Perhaps plating them in Silver or Nickle like was applied to some of the above reproductions is a solution for some.

Everyone reading this knows that as a general rule, one should never remove a legitimate patina from a knife, sharpen a blade, or otherwise permanently modify a knife. Intervention should stop at preservation. However, there is little doubt that the Zinc corrosion in this case, like rust on a high carbon steel blade, will have a detrimental effect if left uncontested and result in destruction. Advancements in materials science and favorable preservation research has encouraged me greatly and I have begun partnering with experts to come up with some possible long-term rescue plans to share.

To give you an idea of the great condition of some of the original WW2 Marine Raider Stilettos still out there and to convince others that this is a project worth discussing, consider the following specimen that I intend to keep even if the handle succumbs to obliteration:


Anyway, thanks for your input!
 
D Dsizzle , thank you for such thoughtful, informative posts about this great knife! In my experience, the Marine Raider Stiletto is a frequently under-addressed topic when discussion turns to World War II combat blades. I suppose that the scarcity of well-preserved specimens has, at least in part, caused that. I'm not a collector of World War II knives, per se, but when I've looked at and considered buying them in the past, I've always steered away from the Raider Stiletto, thinking, 'Why would I buy a knife that may deteriorate on me no matter how gingerly I treat it?'

I'm very impressed by the reproductions offered by Historical Associates. I had no idea that they existed, so I really appreciate your post. Thank you!


-Steve

P.S. - Lest we dwell too much on the knives and forget the men who put them to use and gave their name meaning.

IMG-8623.jpg


IMG-4123.jpg


IMG-8622.jpg
 
D Dsizzle , thank you for such thoughtful, informative posts about this great knife! In my experience, the Marine Raider Stiletto is a frequently under-addressed topic when discussion turns to World War II combat blades. I suppose that the scarcity of well-preserved specimens has, at least in part, caused that. I'm not a collector of World War II knives, per se, but when I've looked at and considered buying them in the past, I've always steered away from the Raider Stiletto, thinking, 'Why would I buy a knife that may deteriorate on me no matter how gingerly I treat it?'

I'm very impressed by the reproductions offered by Historical Associates. I had no idea that they existed, so I really appreciate your post. Thank you!


-Steve

P.S. - Lest we dwell too much on the knives and forget the men who put them to use and gave their name meaning.

IMG-8623.jpg


IMG-4123.jpg


IMG-8622.jpg
Great reply and pictures! I’m glad you looked at the Historical Associates page. They just updated their mold to fabricate one for me. Great customer service!
 
Here are some close-ups of the commemoratives v. Original Marine Raider Stiletto. All are beautiful and well-made. The top one is the sterling silver HG Long model. The middle is the Pewter Camillus with NOS blade. The bottom one is my original WW2 specimen. Clearly, the Two Camillus models are nearly identical in every way other than in luster differences. The Camillus blades were purportedly machined from stamped WW2 high carbon blanks and purposely differ only in color of the blade finishing and the etching.

Other than the shape and length of the spear point blade, handle finish luster, and the Marine Amphibious Corps Raider patch inlay, the main visual difference with the HG Long stiletto is that the grip texture at the “spine” seems a slightly wider than the Camillus pattern. Since all three were cast from molds based on the original texture pattern, this subtle difference might be the result of the silver simply being shinier or the spine being worked and polished more before being plated with that extra layer of silver. It is also possible that the casting mold used was less detailed due to age or other manufacturing differences in the respective outsourced casting shops.

 
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The other interesting thing about the knives is the differences in blade length and overall weight. The WW2 Fairbairn-Sykes British Commando standard issue typically had a thicker seven-inch hollow ground blade and a handle made of a brass alloy, weighing in at between 8.1 and 8.5 oz overall. The original Camillus Raider, modeled after the 2nd Pattern Wilkenson Sword F/S but made with the then experimental Zinc Aluminum alloy handle cast onto the stamped blade, weighs in at 7.8 oz. The commemorative Camillus made with a similar but more stable pewter alloy weighs in at 7.58 oz. The HG Long commemorative, also made of a type of silver plated pewter but with a slightly shorter stainless steel blade, weighs the most at 8.54 oz.

I attribute the significantly higher weight of the HG Long model to the wider spear point blade made of thicker stainless steel, the enamel inlay, and the silver coating. I would like to weigh other undamaged originals and compare that data set to those exhibiting Zinc deterioration to see if such damage can be predicted through weight variances caused by excessive lead contamination or moisture absorption. X-rays and laser scans would also be interesting.

Here are photos comparing two authentic issued WW2 Royal Marine Commando F/S daggers (2nd and 3rd Pattern) beside the original U.S. Marine Raider Stiletto that they inspired. They all have a “coke bottle” silhouette and a 7 inch needle-tipped blade. The Royal Marine Commando models have blackened (blued) hollow-ground blades. The earlier discussed Camillus commemorative also has this darkened blade treatment. The aforementioned Case XX commemorative stiletto has a ricasso like the 1st and 2nd pattern F/S daggers (most 3rd pattern do not).

All the USMC stilettos are cast as a single piece, whereas the components of the British Commando daggers are stacked and secured with a brass nut at the butt of the hilt. This nut is a distinguishing feature of the British knives and even the vise marks can help determine which shop assembled them. Clearly, the U.S. made stilettos were made of thinner and less critical war metals. Therefore, they were quicker and much cheaper to manufacture. These compromises seemed necessary during a time of World War, but we now see the natural consequence of such haste with few remaining intact specimens. If stainless steel, pewter, or even more brass had been available to Camillus at the time of manufacture, the story of durability and survivability might be a lot different.

 
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The other interesting thing about the knives is the differences in blade length and overall weight. The WW2 Fairbairn-Sykes British Commando standard issue typically had a thicker seven-inch hollow ground blade and a handle made of a brass alloy, weighing in at between 8.1 and 8.5 oz overall. The original Camillus Raider, modeled after the 2nd Pattern Wilkenson Sword F/S but made with the then experimental Zinc Aluminum alloy handle cast onto the stamped blade, weighs in at 7.8 oz. The commemorative Camillus made with a similar but more stable pewter alloy weighs in at 7.58 oz. The HG Long commemorative, also made of a type of silver plated pewter but with a slightly shorter stainless steel blade, weighs the most at 8.54 oz.

I attribute the significantly higher weight of the HG Long model to the wider spear point blade made of thicker stainless steel, the enamel inlay, and the silver coating. I would like to weigh other undamaged originals and compare that data set to those exhibiting Zinc deterioration to see if such damage can be predicted through weight variances caused by excessive lead contamination or moisture absorption. X-rays and laser scans would also be interesting.

Here are photos comparing two authentic issued WW2 Royal Marine Commando F/S daggers (2nd and 3rd Pattern) beside the original U.S. Marine Raider Stiletto that they inspired. They all have a “coke bottle” silhouette and a 7 inch needle-tipped blade. The Royal Marine Commando models have blackened (blued) hollow-ground blades. The earlier discussed Camillus commemorative also has this darkened blade treatment. The aforementioned Case XX commemorative stiletto has a ricasso like the 1st and 2nd pattern F/S daggers (most 3rd pattern do not).

All the USMC stilettos are cast as a single piece, whereas the components of the British Commando daggers are stacked and secured with a brass nut at the butt of the hilt. This nut is a distinguishing feature of the British knives and even the vise marks can help determine which shop assembled them. Clearly, the U.S. made stilettos were made of thinner and less critical war metals. Therefore, they were quicker and much cheaper to manufacture. These compromises seemed necessary during a time of World War, but we now see the natural consequence of such haste with few remaining intact specimens. If stainless steel, pewter, or even more brass had been available to Camillus at the time of manufacture, the story of durability and survivability might be a lot different.

Good stuff, much thanks for sharing 👍

I do notice in your pics that the two commemoratives have shorter handles. I was under the belief that they either used the original molds or made new molds by casting them from original WW2 knives. So, I am wondering why the handles are not identical in length? 🤔
 
Good stuff, much thanks for sharing 👍

I do notice in your pics that the two commemoratives have shorter handles. I was under the belief that they either used the original molds or made new molds by casting them from original WW2 knives. So, I am wondering why the handles are not identical in length? 🤔
Sorry, the pictures I just posted above are of the genuine WW2 USMC Raider next to 2 Genuine British Fairbairn-Sykes Commando Daggers that it was loosely modeled after. They are different lengths. I only added that picture to demonstrate that the original Raider and therefore its commemoratives share some, but not all characteristics of the British knives. However, the Raider commemoratives are indeed identical to the authentic Raider dimensions for the reasons you pointed out. Sorry I did not make it clear. I also didn’t do a good job lining up the knives or getting proper angles and perspective in the commemoratives comparison picture.
 
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Sorry, the pictures I just posted above are of the genuine WW2 USMC Raider next to 2 Genuine British Fairbairn-Sykes Commando Daggers that it was loosely modeled after. They are different lengths. I only added that picture to demonstrate that the original Raider and therefore its commemoratives share some, but not all characteristics of the British knives. However, the Raider commemoratives are indeed identical to the authentic Raider dimensions for the reasons you pointed out. Sorry I did not make it clear. I also didn’t do a good job lining up the knives or getting proper angles and perspective in the commemoratives comparison picture.
Thanks for the response 👍
I looked at your photos and it just looked like the original cast handle was longer than the commemoratives.
I believe I read that the same company in Syracuse that cast the handles onto the original WW2 knives, did them for Camillus on their commemorative. Not sure what that company's name was, or if they are still in business. With Camillus Cutlery being defunct, there is no-one to call and ask about such a thing.
I am curious where the molds and such are at, and even if they currently still have them.
Very cool subject, with even the reproduction/commemorative having some interesting history.
Although the British made reproduction/commemoratives are obviously of high quality, the Camillus made versions have that extra little something extra special about them... Made in USA by the company that made the originals 👍🇺🇸👍
 
You are correct about the handle casting being outsourced for the originals. I remember reading something as well. I know Historical Associates uses and outside shop and maintain their own molds. The Camillus molds may be in a museum or otherwise in private hands. Both molds were made using original knives. In fact the model knife for the replicas is a known specimen in the Raider Museum in Richmond Virginia.
 
Three years ago, I started up a post/thread here on Bladeforums pertaining to my Camillus Commemorative Marine Raider Stiletto that I had just purchased at that time.

Anyhow, I put up all sorts of information/links about them that fits right in with this threads topic....

Thread 'Another Gun Show score, a commemorative Camillus USMC Raider Stiletto...' https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...rative-camillus-usmc-raider-stiletto.1656035/
 
Three years ago, I started up a post/thread here on Bladeforums pertaining to my Camillus Commemorative Marine Raider Stiletto that I had just purchased at that time.

Anyhow, I put up all sorts of information/links about them that fits right in with this threads topic....

Thread 'Another Gun Show score, a commemorative Camillus USMC Raider Stiletto...' https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...rative-camillus-usmc-raider-stiletto.1656035/
Good thread. Thanks. Good to note that Precision Die Cast in Syracuse NY was the original outsourced foundry for the handles. We now know that some existing workshops are still capable of the necessary expertise and that molds exist that could be used to recast if necessary. Camillus did it using the original WW2 tooling as late as the 1990’s, so hope lives. Here is the original sheet mentioned in related threads:

 
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Good thread. Thanks. Good to note that Precision Die Cast in Syracuse NY was the original outsourced foundry for the handles. We now know that some existing workshops are still capable of the necessary expertise and that molds exist that could be used to recast if necessary. Camillus did it using the original WW2 tooling as late as the 1990’s, so hope lives. Here is the original sheet mentioned in related threads:


I wonder if 'Precision Die Cast in Syracuse NY' went belly up as well?
I tried looking them up online and found nothing.
Camillus Cutlery, the original and sole producers of the WW2 Marine Raider Stilettos, was such a giant in the knife world, it's really sad that they went defunct in 2007. They really had a long and strong history in making blades of all sorts for the US Military. They also were the actual makers of so many knives for other brands. And, of course they made a great amount of knives under their own brands. A real big loss when they went out of business.
 
I believe I read somewhere Precision Diecast was defunct as well as Camillus. However, under “Other Manufacturers”: “W.R. Case” is listed as a possible rival contract source. This corroborates what my research into the original government contract led me to believe. As shown in the pictures of the tribute knives that I put on IMGUR links above and below, modern WR Case versions have a very similar cast handle to the Camillus Raider Stiletto, but a much different spear point blade with a wide ricasso at the junction of the two. I believe that only sample specimens of the Case model were submitted to the U.S. Marines, but we now know that replicas have been made and called everything from “Raider Stiletto” to “OSS Dagger”. I can’t confirm that the original Case submission looked like this, but these are elegant and handsome knives and those original specimens would be worth a pretty penny, as would the cast moldings and tooling that made them.

 
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Another fascinating wrinkle to the Marine Raider Stiletto origin story and the replicas spawned by that knife, is the existence of a very few longer bladed all-brass handled versions by an unknown manufacturer. These are much closer in form to the original Zinc handled Raider, but have the brass constitution of an OSS stiletto. According to some experts, these were theatre made during WW2. However, the exacting quality of multiple examples makes me and at least one other forum member wonder if they may be early models by one of the original two contracted companies, WR Case or Camillus.

 
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I believe Case contracted Camillus Cutlery to make their Case Marine Raider Stiletto commemorative knives.
Camillus was known as the contract King, they made knives for so many other cutleries and other brands.

On a Case contracting out related subject.... Case contracts the Ontario Knife Company of New York State to make the Case version of the KaBar utility/fighting knives for them.
 
I believe Case contracted Camillus Cutlery to make their Case Marine Raider Stiletto commemorative knives.
Camillus was known as the contract King, they made knives for so many other cutleries and other brands.

On a Case contracting out related subject.... Case contracts the Ontario Knife Company of New York State to make the Case version of the KaBar utility/fighting knives for them.
That’s interesting, because I just saw a “Marine Parachitist” knife by Ontario Knife Company that looks similar to the more famous and more valuable Western Cutlery WW2 “Paramarine” knife. I was not aware that there was another version. Perhaps it is a remake of one that was submitted for contract but not awarded?
 
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