Researching Katanas, believed to be Tamahagane Steel

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Jul 16, 2010
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Long time lurker and 3 year member. I don't post much but, I've got the bug again.

Blade Enthusiasts,

My magic swords, for your consideration.
http://imgur.com/a/NgUDs

Where I am… what they might be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guntō

The change to the "Type 98" shin guntō (九八式軍刀, kyūhachi-shiki guntō?) occurred in 1938 and was essentially a simplification of the "Type 94". There were only minor differences between early "Type 98" swords and the "Type 94" swords that preceded them. Most notably the second (removable) hanging point was deleted from the scabbard.

Many changes occurred to the "Type 98" between 1938 and the end of the war in 1945. Late in the war Japan's supply of metal was drying up and shin guntō were produced with painted wooden scabbards, and with cheaper or no brass ornamentation. Some of the final swords produced in the last year of the war utilized cheap copper or blackened iron fittings.

I originally believed these swords to be made from damascus steel but, I now believe they are period Tamahagane steel. Cut down from antiques/family heirlooms, in Japan in or around 1943. Japan had lost much of it’s industry, and steel was scarce. And, the wikipedia bits about cheaper, brass ornamentation is spot on, so is the painted wood scabbard. These were done late in the war, closest to defeat so perhaps… desperate times are cause for desperate measures? I believe that whoever was tasked with cutting down these blades, knew in doing so, that the original makers marks would be cut off. And perhaps, for history’s sake, these blades were resigned in an area that would never be cut away, and last as long as the blade itself. Perhaps they are names of clans, swordsmiths, towns/cities, or just sir names for the man who would carried them. I can not find that information. A friend recently returned from China and gave me a loose translation for the characters on each sword might mean.

1.) Tagawa
2.) Abe Yoshihiro

I won’t go into detail on what google has to say on either of these, the possibilities are too much to write about. But, i will say, having “Yoshihiro” on a swords that my be a period sword, is worth looking into. Go Yoshihiro = The real life Hitori Hanso.

Abe = An old promient Japanese clan
Tagawa = Sir Name, City founded in Japan in 1943.

About the swords
Exquisite quality blades that had been constructed to carry and edge. In fact, they are dirty-razor sharp in certain sections. There exist on portions of both, areas that have been dulled from, what is presumably contact with something hard. Maybe another sword, maybe a tank. With what, i don’t know, but the striations lead me to believe this blade and seen usage at one time. The metals have a slight patina in areas, and the brass is quite tarnished.

Who knows
My eye for great work is not so adept as to make a judgement either way, as to the nature of their authenticity (without future research). I’m in the process of research, but as anyone who has gone down that road of authenticating can attest, it’s slow going and can be costly. That professional judgement is the cost i’m considering however (paying to meet with an expert), I want to share what I found here first… Both as a show and tell, but also because I might just be a dumb jackass. My own beliefs on the subject, are irrelevant but, i’ve been told I have a good eye for quality, and have proved it to myself more than a few times. Though, i’ve been wrong before when it comes to antiquity. But, i believe if you examine the photos, you will see the magic. You be the judge.

My acquisition
I purchased these swords from some kind of event that was happening the same day as “The Nations’ Gun Show”, at the Capitol Expo Center in, Chantilly Virginia… on the 3rd day fo a 3 day show. I can’t remember exactly what year, possibly 2009. The building is now a Walmart, go figure, but at the time was set up as a kind of old military show? Not too certain, don’t rightly remember. Lots of armor and swords. Some (supposedly) dated back to the Civil War. Many cavalry swords, honor guard swords, and a few Japanese WW2 era swords. “DO NOT TOUCH” signs strewn on nearly everything that was remotely appealing. On a far table, I saw a man moving a few items to straighten the ugliest flag i’d ever seen. Yellow, and dirty I certainly was as he folded it twice and put down 2 swords on top of it, and at first glance – what I believed to be chintzy (made in China) garbage. Besides the handful of expensive relics i’d seen displayed, those 2 swords were the only other Japanese katanas i’d seen all day.

The man said he had sold a bunch of swords, these were the last ones he had. He had put them out earlier days of the show, but had received little interest so he boxed them to make room for other merch. He added, that besides the looks of them, the blades were of quality and like the blades on these 2 the best. The scabbards weren’t so appealing however, one was remarkably ugly sat atop that soiled flag. Now, bare in mind, that these places aren’t so well lit… think parking garage lighting. And I don’t carry a flashlight and magnifying glass around like some kind of Sherlock blade detective. But, what from I could see up close, right under my nose... these were stellar! While, made of mismatched parts, the blades on these swords were amazing. At the time, I thought they were damascus but, they might have been old PBR cans molded to look like the genuine article. What the heck do i know for sure?

I bought one, the sword with the better handle and sheath. I had briefly considered buying the both of them, but the other one had a really gaudy scabbard. That justification made sense to me at the time because, I probably shouldn’t even have tempted myself by going to the show in the first place. Now, i’m looking at several hundred dollars for 2 swords and I won’t be able to buy groceries for the week. So, I take my 1 swords and I leave. When i walk outside into the bright day sun, I can’t help myself, i want to examine my purchase in better light. The first thing I notice is that both blades have Japanese characters, of another kind of metal… gold? Brass, most likely, inset into the blades. As i unsheathed the sword. the blade lit up like magic in the sun. The light bends off them in a way you’d have to see to believe. Yes, I said them because, I immediately 180’ed, and ran back inside the show and luckily found the other sword where I had left it. Bought the 2nd, and thanked the man. The photos are off, but I shared every one of them, the camera’s colors are all over the place, I know. But, I did several test shots in controlled lighting with other objects and they all came out fine, this swords makes me think my camera was busted. Nope, couldn’t get any better results with any other apertures, lenses, filters or lights… or camera. It’s not the camera, it’s the sword.
 
To the op don't dismiss what Lee Bray says I can't comment so won't I know Lee knows his stuff though .
ATB .
Incase your wondering who I am lee ... Pssst :D.
 
Well. I feel like a cat in a fish costume.

The hard part for me, isn't the money but rather, that they look and feel remarkable to me. The blades are thick and imposing, heavy duty. They are reproduction quality as opposed to, cheap knock offs.
 
Hi Lime.
Since you're open to the facts on this, I'd have to say they're knock offs rather than reproductions.
The thread below this one shows a Chinese reproduction - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...eed-some-feedback-on-my-Katana-sword-purchase
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270965513789?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

With this sword, it is more than likely functional and a product of some skill with some care taken on the heat treatment.
With your swords, they've emphasised the grain of the steel with an acid etch to deceive so I doubt there is any level of heat treatment to the blades.
The inscription is very easy to do; chisel or dremel the characters and apply a little gold lacquer.

Sorry you got taken.
I strongly suggest some in hand experience with the real thing before shelling out good cash.
Most would suggest books, then more books at first, but that seldom happens.
Get yourself to some sword shows or find someone local to you and charm them into a meeting. At the very least, put some hours in online.
After some experience, you'll spot the vast majority of fakes immediately.

Here's an excellent site for some learning - http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
And here's an excellent site for some eye candy - http://www.aoijapan.com/

Best of luck.
 
Well. I feel like a cat in a fish costume.

The hard part for me, isn't the money but rather, that they look and feel remarkable to me. The blades are thick and imposing, heavy duty. They are reproduction quality as opposed to, cheap knock offs.

If you know how to cut, I recommend trying them out. If they do not self destruct you have some good weapons....if they do get damaged, you should be able to repair them to wall hang ability and enjoy them from the aesthetic perspective.

If you don't know how to cut with a katana, please do yourself and everyone else a favor and just admire them.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
They may LOOK and FEEL remarkable, but the truth isn't always represented by appearances. The quality may look fantastic, and I, like you, have my fair share of Chinese reproductions. They do turn out some pieces that look very impressive. The biggest problem I've encountered, particularly with the higher quality Chinese blades, is with QC, type of steel, and quality of heat treat. With many MIC blades, you have no idea what steel was used, and the heat treat is generally hit or miss (usually miss, without some oversight to bring quality control up to reasonable snuff).

The pitting around the lines on your sword, as well as the general character of the steel, makes me, at least, think that the welds aren't great, and that it was probably acid etched to bring out more contrast. You can see there's even lines running through the steel as well, on a close examination, which look very much like a belt finish to me. They're far too even and regular to be anything but.

On the other hand, if you like them, and you like the way they feel, that's a big factor. I've got a few cheap blades that aren't really worth much, but I still love them, particularly as wall-hangers.
 
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