Reverse-grip Hawk fighting

T

tommyhawk

Joined
Dec 15, 2004
Messages
30
Hey,
me and my cousin have started sparing with our hawks, we found that it is SUPER hard to fight Hawk vs. Hawk. Especially as we both learn to master the advantages and disadvantages. we found that the only way to keep an active spar going is to one or both switch our Hawk around and use it as a Parrying/Bludgeoning type weapon. is this common? are there people who have mastered or at least used this grip? any and all comments welcome.
 
The reverse grip is a little underused and sometimes underappreciated in any type of axe fighting.

You ask a really good question with regards to a hawk, because often the hawk handle provides a better grip than a typical axe or adze. As a result, the reverse grip is definitely doable on a hawk, and less so on other types of axes.

First, this wouldn't be my grip of choice. It's good basically for hooking and traps, but that's basically about it...as I think you're discovering. If the beard of your hawk is sharp enough, a reverse grip allows you to slash with that, including the throat. My advice would be to practice changing a reverse grip to a forward grip as fast as you can, without losing control of the head...this is not a grip you want to be in long. Use the reverse grip for whatever you want to use it for, but get back to a forward grip as fast as you can.

A forward grip can be used to block and parry, and is a little better because it puts more distance between your hand and his axehead. Don't block with the edge of the hawk, but try to use the top of the axehead to stop his handle (not his blade), and clear it away for your counter. I believe a reverse grip will put your whole forearm within an inch or two of his edge or beard, and that's risky by far.

So use it, but do so with caution. Definitely experiment and discover what you like.

Hope this helped.
 
Watchful,
Wow! I never thought of using the hawk like that. what I was talking about is turning the hawk upside down with the blade coming out the bottom of your hand, so that you can use the handle as a bludgeoning/parrying weapon, almost like a small sword. only you can follow through with deadly sweeping puches. have you used this grip?
happy holidays!
 
...haven't read this thread real carefully, but I've seen it done...again, by CJ. Flashy, but needs a lanyard to you can spin the Hawk back to standard grip...works kind of like a Kama.

It probably has some merit, but if I've learned anything in the time I've spent with those certainly more capable than me, I probably would NOT do a grip change during a life or death encounter.
 
ANDY PRISCO,
I think you're right. the reverse-head direction grip is pretty fancy and not to realistic.
but I was wondering if you know anything of the grip I mentioned, the one where you pick it up with the head coming out of the base of your hand, extending forward, and the majority of the handle coming out from the top of your fist.
it's a little goofy looking but VERY suprisingly easy to use when defending quick weapons, such as a knife or spear.
Have you used this grip? has it worked for you?

P.S. is there a reason to get the collecters grade poll hawk over the field grade hawk? or is it just the mirror finish that raises the price?
I appreciate the help.
Happy holidays!
 
tommyhawk said:
Watchful,
...what I was talking about is turning the hawk upside down with the blade coming out the bottom of your hand, so that you can use the handle as a bludgeoning/parrying weapon, almost like a small sword...
Click to expand...
No, actually I have not! However, now that your description gave me a particularly good picture of what you want to do, I don't see why this wouldn't work for a rapid response. Seems very feasible. Certainly more feasible than what I was describing!

You do however shorten the overall length of your weapon, and are limiting your blocking surface to the portion of the handle you have extended. This will require a sufficient amount of accuracy on your part if blocking or parrying: one mistake, and his weapon slides down the handle into your exposed fingers and knuckles. Also, keep in mind that the mass of your weapon is now located at your wrist: the handle won't do as much damage as the edges.

A forward grip, as you've discovered, provides you a longer reach and more blocking facets, as well as hooking and trapping opportunities. It puts the more dangerous portion of the weapon (the hawk head) in between you and him. I think that's pretty much what you'd want more often, although styles differ.

So for a rapid response (he strikes, you speed-draw the hawk from its mask in the reverse grip you describe, parry, and then gash him with the blade), you've got a really good idea, and I'll look into it. Thanks! But I think you've got one maybe two moves with this grip and that's it.

Also, I would encourage you consider your hawk against other weapons; hawk vs. hawk leads to predictable attacks and counterattacks... spar against a knife, stick, or a length of chain--you'll find all new techniques and responses will come flowing out of your hawk.

Thanks again for your description; I'll definitely try it out and see.
 
Watchful,
Thank you so much for your input. and you're right, I'm finding that my range of moves is severly retarded using this grip, and like you said, pretty much limited to one or two.

The reason I like it is cause those one or two moves are AMAZINGLY effective! It's crazy! I have yet to spar against a length of chain, but I have sparred against a knife, a sword, and a Jo-staff,(my former weapon of choice before God himself showed me the hawk! :D )

With the staff, i find it is pretty much a toss-up in the effectiveness of MY grip(which I'll call the reverse-handle grip for now( and the effectivness of the conventional grip. so I go in using the conventional grip and then switch to the reverse-handle after a two-handed block by grasping the reverse-handle grip with my left hand.( my being ambidextrious helps on that one.)

Against the knife, this is wickedly effective. I found that, in sparing person quick with the knife, they just waited for me to swing, dodge, and quickly countered. (knife fighters are scary quick aren't they?) but if I use the reverse-handle grip, I can move just as quckley and unsuspectingly. and also had the advantage of being able to attack his knife hand just as quickley, from further away.

With the sword, I think it is just up to everyone on what they prefer. With the conventional grip you can hook and trap, looking for a moment to strike. and with my reverse-handle grip, you can practically fence with them, bring them in close to you to strike. the advantege of this is that, short of slashing, you take away the swords advantages of stabbing and length by bringing them in so close, which I prefer.

This grip also allows you to put your free hand on the proper end of the handle and perform a wicked two handed slash.

And lastly, you can use this grip to win a fight in a non-lethal manner, if the situation required it. this grip allows you to perform some DEVASTATING blows with the handle (cause of the weight in back) that are extremely accurate.

I did'nt mean for this post to be so long, but I hope it will help improve your sparring sessions, which, from the way you talk, are already pretty advanced.

I appreciate your input very much, And I wish you the happiest holiday.
Tommyhawk. (Ian)
P.S. what do you use to spar with chain? actuall chain? or plastic?
 
Thanks, and good holidays back to you. Hope they're quiet and restful.

To be clear, I think your reverse grip has a lot of merit, and your estimation for the physics of it (weight to the rear, ability to generate torque into the blade to produce powerful hits) is dead on. You've definitely given me much to try.

Knives are effective against a range of mixed weapons because they're reasonably balanced (some are ideally balanced), and can rapidly change directions without suffering a loss of power--as we all know, you stop a knife one way only to be cut a second later by a quick twist of the wrist!

Swords and staves, being longer-range weapons, will pose more problems for the axe, but as you've pinpointed, they're not show stoppers. A hawk and a sword have pretty close to the same range; the advantage to the sword is that you can control its momentum a little better than a heavier hawk head, and can often thrust inside faster than he can block with the axe. However, you're dead-on that a sword's rigid length makes it prone to hooks and traps, and if you know this going in, you'll do really well.

As for the chain, and this is probably starting another thread!, there's a lot you can do. I'm an advocate for using the real things where possible, but want to be clear on two safety points:

- Some people like to swing chains like huge whips. My advice for this is to use a light-weight rounded link chain. Nothing heavy, because you can really clock somebody with this, and eventually they won't want to work out with you anymore. So I would recommend some decorative aluminum type of chain you can get from a landscaper or home center. I've never used that plastic decorative chain stuff because of the lack of weight, but don't see why it couldn't work. Also, because the longer the chain is, the slower it swings, avoid using chain longer than your own height. If you go over, it becomes really easy for the other guy to grab in flight.

- I personally don't like to swing chains at targets--it puts too much of the weapon in your opponent's range, and if he's ever gone against a chain before he knows how to close in and grab it. A quick tug, and it's out of your hand. Rather, I like keep the chain loose in both hands for trapping and choking. You can also quickly double it up and swing it like a stick for a few powershots, but that risks the same problem as using a longer chain. And I never ever pull the chain taut and try to stop an incoming strike with it. I see people do this all the time in movies, and if you've ever tried it against a full swinging attack, you probably have a bad welt on the forehead to show for it: a chain will always yield to a longer weapon. It's simple leverage. So for using the chain in this manner, I recommend a 6' (2m) length of japanned chain--the links that look like figure 8s. You can get this stuff very cheap at any hardware store. The links coil up fast, don't get as tangled, and have a barbed-wire feel that snags clothing and weaponry very easily. JUST the stuff you'd want!

On that note, ironically, I hope everyone reading has a wonderful holiday season, whatever your holidays may be.
 
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