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Discussion in 'Traditional Folders and Fixed Blades' started by dalee100, Sep 10, 2008.
Nice RR's guys. Excuse the poor picture, but here are some of mine.
^ just some of them?
Great collection. You've got to get a standard RR barlow in Bark Bone - prettiest barlow I've ever seen.
Very nice collection! I've been concentrating on the large trappers for the last few months.
I've had that pattern before but with a different handle material. It's a nice pattern and I'll use it but I usually prefer a larger stockman like the RR725. The armor series tickles me though so I'll probably buy it. I need to figure out a few more things so that I can combine shipping.
I think I bought the Colt sowbelly after seeing your photos. I'm not sure but based on the source, I'd guess that it must be the current version. It does have the same model number as the signature series sowbelly. I bought 3 and I've only looked over one of them thoroughly but I think all 3 have a spey blade that rests on the liner. All of the examples of the RR 3- and 5-blade sowbellies that I've seen were similar and had some spey blade rub. I've seen around 12 RR sowbellies and these 3 Colt sowbellies. When I bought them, I assumed the spey blades would rub. I guess it's just typical of the way they make these knives. I don't recall if they had any rub on the other blades. The Colt that I've been using doesn't have any rub on the clip or sheepfoot blades but I need to check the others. I'll post a photo of the well. The "black stag" bone is pretty consistent on all 3. One has a little more black on one side. I think they must polish the handles a bit and must have missed the back of that one.
I actually prefer the 5 blade RRs over the 3 blade RR or Colt sowbellies since the clip blades are much more full. I wish they'd use the same clip blade on all their sowbellies. I've thought about converting a few 5-blades into 3-blades but that might not happen.
You guys think there is a reason they don't make a swayback jack? Seems like they'd have a hard time finding a place to put all the money if they did start.
or if Rough Rider were to come out with 1095 blades as an option, with the same quality and at the same price point as their stainless bladed knives.
I have the impression that the general public knows, understands, and wants SS. Not sure if that's true or not.
As an example, on a non knife related website someone complained about a Moore Maker knife turning color when he used it. He was very disappointed that such an expensive knife would "rust" and he promptly replaced it with a Kershaw with stainless steel. A few people tried to explain that 1095 was a high quality steel but he was uninterested.
GEC is an exception since they are primarily selling to traditional knife aficionados and their production numbers are tiny compared to Case... and extremely tiny compared to Victorinox. The general public is buying a lot more knives from Case than GEC.... and a LOT more from Victorinox. And only a small percentage of Case's knives are CV. Aside from a few Damascus special runs, Victorinox's knives are stainless.
I think there's a market for 1095 RR knives but I think the market for 440A RR knives is much larger.
Could be, but those of us who are "vintage antiques" (myself included) will always pine for a good quality high carbon steel low cost "user" knife, since that is what we had way back when, when we were in the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts (Brownies and Girl Scouts for the female knife knuts) and what Gramps, Granny, ma, and pa probably used.
Growing up in Iowa during the insane 50's and 60's the knife of choice was Buck, Imperial/Schrade, Camillus, and for the more well to do, Case.
I have nothing against GEC and the rest, they make great knives, from what I've seen in the forums. They are way out of my price range though. $30.00 is, for me, an expensive knife.
Times are changing. I grew up buying knives to use as tools, not necessarily to collect them. I not only liked, but I needed good tools. I approached knife buying from that same standpoint. I ended up with a "collection" because like my other tools, I needed more than one, I needed a different knife for each job. When we needed a good hunting knife we bought Bucks, because they were stainless steel and didn't corrode. My hand tools are Snap On, all stainless, all expensive, but good lifelong tools if cared for. We, (I), thought of knives in that same way, buy good stainless steel "tools". In those days Schrades were mostly carbon, less expensive, and in our minds kind of disposable, (I'm talking about the 60's-70's here). Knowing how to sharpen our tools we didn't really care that carbon held a better edge than stainless, we just knew carbon would get rusty and groady relatively quickly. If a SS blade went dull, we sharpened it quickly, and then went back to work. Of course nowadays I have begun to properly "collect" knives, and I have a representative few CV knives in my collection which I appreciate for their steel properties. However, I still prefer a stainless steel knife in most instances, because like my Snap On tools it will be as nice looking and useful 20 years from now as it is today.
It's all about motives, why do you collect? To appreciate component qualities, or to collect good, well made tools?
To me it is simply a matter of needs and taste, and what works for you according to those needs and taste. It's not a matter of which steel is "best".
afh, I'd also like a sub $30 knife with 1095. The only example that I can think of is the sodbuster. I think there's definitely a market. It's just a very small market by comparison
Sonny, That "disposable" Schrade 8OT required some saving when I was younger! And it's still a cherished possession. Ha ha ha! But I like SS as well as carbon. I grew up with both. My first knives were stainless Swiss army knives.
I buy new knives to use. If I spend $100 on a knife from GEC, then I better get a LOT of good use from it. I collect old knives but my impression is that people are losing appreciation for the history. I think old knives are "disposable" to a lot of folks. I also use some old knives but my opinion is that some should be preserved. To me they are part of history that is worth preserving... and that history is being replaced by hand sanded and buffed knives that resemble the originals in much the same way as half melted ice cube resembles it's original form.... and parts knives or complete fakes. It's a shame, in my opinion. Our children's children might not ever see a crocus or glazed finish on an old knife blade. It's my impression that there's a lot more interest... or sometimes it might be intere$$$t ...in collecting new knives. I also appreciate the new knives but they wouldn't be "traditional" if it weren't for the oldies! But there's no right or wrong in collecting. People will collect anything.... even tool knives!
If a knife is going to just sit in a box, it doesn't need to take a great edge or hold it. It doesn't even need to be sharp. And to me, a lot of the Case Tru Sharp and Queen/Schatt 420HC knives from the 80s and 90s fit that description. Does Queen even grind the blade blanks for their stainless knives??? There's a night and day difference between Queen's grinds on the carbon and stainless knives. So to some extent, I had the impression that they weren't really making the knives to be used. I thought their SS knives were intended to sit in a display case and their carbon knives were intended to be used. But I also appreciate your perspective about stainless. The stainless Buck 301 is a good example. It's a great low cost work knife at least in my opinion. It's been around a long time and gone through big changes in manufacturing but it's still a great knife. They can be found for less than $30 shipped. They work hard and don't require much maintenance.
Well over a year ago RR was planning a line of carbon steel knives. They were saying that the line was in the design process. Then It went quiet.
I do not see why RR should bring out knives with 1095 steel. Sure, there are knife knuts who would buy them but the majority of their buyers are likely regular folk who like the low prices and would not understand patina and who prefer a shiny blade.
The steel & it's heat treatment that RR has been using now for about 10(?) years works very well: easily takes a good edge and then holds it as well as knives costing 3-4x the price.
As it is RR has a winning 'formula' and the best advice i know is: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
It just seems like there are a few patterns that = money right now that Rough Rider doesn't make. I think it would be cool to get a 1095 line, and I think the solution to the rust issue is to market them as what they are .... loudly. If it's kind of a mystery what steel they are when a person goes to buy one, then you'll have people upset that their shiny knife started to rust. But if they have blatantly obvious differences, or markings it might help. Colt, or whoever, apparently felt the same way when they put whatever coating on their carbon line.
One thing I noticed the other day, 1095 from a knife making supply place costs less than even 440C? Are they just not using 1095 because of rust? I have never really had an issue with it. I either give it a vinegar dip or make sure it stays dry. My carbon steel Old Timer sat around forgotten for years until I came back around to appreciating slipjoints and old knives, and it had hardly any rust on it. The back springs were really the worst for wear. Then again, my Dad just abuses the snot out of his pocket knives. I have never seen a knife kept so dirty. Guts and whatever else left on them. He doesn't care what they looked like, so I guess it really is individual. I gave him a new Case a few years ago and it looks today like he found it in the belly of a deer carcass.
I am only guessing that a large percentage of Rough Rider knives become uncared for beaters. I do think they lean more toward collectors with the huge variety they offer, so maybe there are more Rough Rider fans who would potentially appreciate 1095 than it seems. But it's tough to say. I suppose they have sat around trying to figure this one out as well and maybe the Colt carbon line gave them some clue about the market's reaction. I guess I'm torn on the subject. I would for sure buy a carbon knife from them, but I'd be more excited about even more patterns and cover options than steel options.
They were really talking it up on facebook like it was about to happen. I was suggesting that they make it their premium line at about $30.00. I figure if they uped their game a little bit that all the carbon knuts would give them a try. They seem to have dumped the project though.
Robin, Aren't the Colts and RRs made for the same company in the same factory? Were the carbon Colts a test run? Are they discontinued?
Jake, do have an example of a "carbon Colt" or know where one can be seen ? (not counting all the old Colts that came before this offshore manufacturer).
KJ, I don't have one. I'm not sure if they are discontinued or not but they can still be found on eBay. Here are the model numbers that I know of...
CT607 Large Moose
CT610 Bow Trapper
Here's a stock photo of the trapper
Well look at that would you!
marbles_knives by city_ofthe_south, on Flickr
marbles_sidebyside by city_ofthe_south, on Flickr
marbles_closed by city_ofthe_south, on Flickr
marbles_spine by city_ofthe_south, on Flickr
marbles_brokendown by city_ofthe_south, on Flickr
Biggest annoyance at this point is that there are locating holes in the liners for the bolsters, but on the one with the clip blade, they didn't use them. And, because they are already so close to the edges, there is almost no room for tweaking later on. I may just make new liners for it, I dunno.
As for the knives themselves before I broken them down, the Sleeve Board was a nail breaker, with half stops on the little blades but not on the larger one. The other knife has half stops all around, but the spring tension is medium to light. So to at least some degree they don't seem quite as well designed as my RRs but since they don't make patterns like these that I am aware of, I can't compare.
Pins measure .100 sooooo I guess I'm gonna try 3/32 pins and see how it goes? For sure I can do a single blade with the equal end clip point, but it looks like I will probably just put the Sleeve Board back together and call it a learning experience.