Rumor of happenings between Ontario and RAT Cutlery

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Just to clarify a few thing.

The main reason I jumped into this was the comments that freefranklinville made. I will reinforce the fact that I do like both companies.

Some of the statements about Ontario's warranty claims have me questioning who, what, were, and why? I have turned customer warranty problems over to Ontario and they were resolved, that is my experience. If Jeff or Mike makes a statement about problems with Ontario's warranty then I would say that is first hand knowledge, if they say there's a problem then I believe them. On the other side of the coin, if a customer used a knife as a crowbar to pry open a car door and it breaks, then I take issue with that. I do remember reading in another post about a fellow in a ski mask with a few strange requests. And some guys using the knives in ways that are not covered under any companies warranty, I also have issue with that.

To my knowledge no one has heard from Ontario. We could all beat up on them or wait and see what they say in the letter. That is how I feel about all the posts.

I am behind Jeff and Mike about their knife designs, the designs are theirs, its their hard work and their thoughts when into them. RAT Cutlery is looking like a huge success, there again allot of hard work and brain power is paying off. I truly thank Jeff and Mike for letting me sell their knives. To my knowledge they have given all honest/true dealer a listing on their website and an opportunity to share in their success. Both men are true gentlemen, I have had the pleasure of talking to them on the phone (I hope to meet them in person some day). Jeff and Mike run their business with honesty and integrity, that is why when they say something I (and you) can believe it. I never heard either of them ask any person in this forum to run Ontario down. Jeff asked you folks for help, facts to prove their case. From what I have heard them say and seen in their work they do more to help people and companies succeed, not destroy them.

I just wanted to make clear my thoughts, for what its worth. And again I hope it all works out.

Tom
Chestnut Ridge Knife Shop
 
I think most of us, and I include myself, are more disappointed in Ontario Knife Co., than we are truly pissed off.

Firstly, we don't have a direct enough stake to be pissed off about any of this. In my opinion there is nothing Ontario can do to legally close down RC, nor do they have a potentially successful enough case to bleed RC dry. If anyone is going to get bled white, it's Ontario.

That said, actions have to have consequences. There is no doubt in my mind that Mr. Trbovich got on the horn and threatened RC's existence.

I have written an email to Ontario politely and firmly expressing my displeasure with their presumed course of action. This week I sold off all of my Ontario RATs with no intention of ever buying another Ontario produced knife while the current management there still serves.

In fact, I am selling all of my Bark Rivers off over a much different knife political matter. I simply don't buy, or keep, products from people I do not respect, whether they are Chicom slave drivers or American liars and bottomfeeders. Or the friends of Stolen Valor types either.

There are too many truly decent people in this industry to unashamedly throw cash rewards to the unrepentant dirtbags.
 
Boats said:
...In fact, I am selling all of my Bark Rivers off over a much different knife political matter. I simply don't buy, or keep, products from people I do not respect, whether they are Chicom slave drivers or American liars and bottomfeeders. Or the friends of Stolen Valor types either.
...
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A little bit off topic but... what is going on with Bark River? Should I be aware of something before I buy anything from them? (I am about to, that is why I am asking).

Mikel
 
Don't worry about Bark River and don't get caught up in a frenzy of backstabbing. We seem to have an outburst of self-righteousness here.

Support the makers of knives you like and leave other people to their own politics - a very inappropriate subject.
 
Mike and I pretty much like everyone in this industry. We would rather bring 10 new "competitors" into this game than try to run one off. With that said, the warranty issues on Ontario RATs has suffered and we have the customer emails to prove it. Quality has suffered also and we have a ton of documentation to prove that. Documentation to where Mike and I are damn near on our knees begging Ontario to fix the problem, and no one seemed to care. We could care less what Ontario does with the rest of their product but when they could "officially" build RAT knives, they had to keep quality to a certain standard due to our name being on it. Right now they are still building RAT knives and still putting our name and logo on them, which is just wrong since we have told them to cease and desist. This is an un-endorsed, unlicensed product with zero communication going to the owners, designers, or the people with their name on the product, nor any way for the designers and owners to verify quality of the knives. Nick even told me on the phone that he has told his staff not to communicate with us in any fashion. Ontario no more listened to us when we told them to cease and desist than a 3 year old child would, and therein lies the whole problem with Ontario. It's almost like they looked at Mike and I and said "f*** off - we'll build your product and use your name whether you want us to or not, regardless of the contract, and then we'll even threaten to sue you if you use your own name and designs. That's what hurts so bad - the lack of honor and integrity to just do the right thing. All the dealers and distributors need to understand that we DO NOT endorse or license ANY product coming from Ontario and that Ontario is building knives and using our name against our wishes. Well, that's what attorneys and courts are for.

I've seen many other companies choose the easy path instead of doing the right thing. The easy path seems to be more profitable, and it is on its face value, but it almost always leaves out the most important component to the equation: the customer. You may be able to bullshit your customer for a while but they will catch on to you before too long. A lot of companies have always felt they were smarter than their "dumb" customer, and those companies eventually suffered.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Don't worry about Bark River and don't get caught up in a frenzy of backstabbing. We seem to have an outburst of self-righteousness here.

Support the makers of knives you like and leave other people to their own politics - a very inappropriate subject.
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Anyone openly supporting stolen valor thieves gets me saddled up on my high horse. There is no larger story with BRK&T, just my personal decision about whom I do business with and whose products I have in my collection.

Where I decide to spend my disposable income and with whom, is never an inappropriate subject.

That said, I'm not recruiting followers.
 
I'll support any man that makes the statement "I'm not recruiting followers." My kinda attitude! :D
 
R.A.T. said:
This is somewhat off the subject, but this story in today's NY Times I found to be an interesting study in how a lot of businesses seem to operate nowadays. To hell with regulations, quality and what's right....just make money!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/w...&ex=1207281600&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print
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:D LOL....I am in sales and there is a saying around here....Money makes the monkey dance :eek: well not me,I sale a person what he needs not what I think he needs and there is a very big difference....:thumbup:
Greed and lust for the almighty dollar will blind anybody and he will sell his soul and yours to aquire the $$$$$ :grumpy: those business usuall fall.
 
CRKS said:
P.S. When I here words like
Quote:
3. Ontario Knife is a known environmental polluter and sweatshop operator.
That sends up a liberal red flag.

Tom
Chestnut Ridge Knife Shop
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I apologize slightly off topic here by why does anything have to do with the environment or "sweatshops" ie workers rights have to be labeled as Liberal? I would think a Conservative would ant to conserve our natural resources and protect the environment; and for a party that is all about protecting rights would wnat to protect the rights of workers and promote freedom across the world--I can think of several "conflicts" we got into for that reason.

Now I'm going to stop thread-jacking and will refrain from further political speak here and will ask you to do the same Tom there is a place on this forum for comments like yours it is called whine and cheese or the political forum.
 
I only commented on the topic that was already started. My comment was directed to the "environmental polluter" statement, not the part about workers rights. If you would have read the first part of this thread you would have seen that one of my concerns were for all of the people at Ontario Knife Co. if things would happen to go sour over this. I talk to those folks (at Ontario) on a weekly basis, I think the world of them they are good folks. So don't put words in my mouth.

I enjoy the great outdoors as much as the next guy, I just know when I here someone throwing that statement around about the environment, their they are causing problems.

To ad to this, I found out what freefranklinville was doing here. It had nothing to do with this forum or this thread. It had everything to do with a person representing a small group of people in Franklinville (not the majority of Franklinville). From what I have been told freefranklinville is more unethical than his claims on Ontario. He is mad because Bob won the election by a 3 to 1 vote count.

Now I too will no longer comment on this topic. It had no business here just like freefranklinville had no business here.

Tom
chestnut Ridge Knife Shop
 
Tom, you've got every right to be here and we welcome you. Same for BareRib.

As far as the freefranklinville folks go, when they can provide any actual documentation pertinent to our case, I will take them serious. Otherwise it's just wasting bandwidth in my opinion.

Wow, sometimes posting stuff on forums is hard to do since you can't really get the meaning across in type.
 
R.A.T. said:
Expat and Boats nailed down our Objective philosophy dead on the head. We're not looking to put Ontario out of business. Never have been. And even though we don't even wish that on them, they will eventually do it to themselves not because of a bad workforce but because of bad management, lack of decisions, and paranoia. And it's not for Mike, myself, or anyone else to save them. I've heard a lot of talk here about their good employees. I know they have some good people there. The RESPONSIBILITY to keep them rests solely on the shoulders of Nick, Bob and the rest of Ontario management.
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well, just found out about all this. wacky.

when you win the legal battles, you can "buy" ontario, and run the ship the way you want :) i hope you like cold new york winters :)

and i liked me my original rat knives i got a while ago, very good stuff - i've since moved onto another bushcrafting style. i've handled some more recent ontario made models lately, and they were quite lacking imho. i won't boycott ontario, but i won't buy poor quality.

i'll have to do me some research, those rat 3/4s might be nifty.

bladite
 
MRpink said:
that is some B.S.! Ontario would be NOTHING without the RAT line you guys designed!
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Get a grip,Ontario has been around a long time. I do not know anything of this case but get real, Ontario does millions each year in Defense business.
 
I can agree with this. Ontario does a huge amount of government contracting so I doubt they will be going anywhere. I don't even want to see them go away. With that said, they need to do what they do best and quit attempting to take property that is not theirs to take, as well as respect the Intellectual Property Rights of others. I fully support any company that does business honorably. And if there is any doubt on whether I'm just blowing smoke out of my butt, then visit this link: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541366 or see our history page on RAT Cutlery for even more details.

Jeff
 
My question to Jeff & Mike is this....What if Ontario floods the market with already manufactured 'RAT 3's, etc'; and then folks come looking for warranty through RC? how are you going to distinguish between good and evil then? Playing devils' advocate 'cause my RC's have issue numbers so i know I'm good to go! there's no way to know where a knife was purchased after it goes from the original owner to the second hand market, is there?

BOATS please email me, thanks.
 
I bought one or more of each knife that YOU GUYS designed as they became availible.
All but a RAT3 have ended up as troop donations.

I think now's a good time to send the RAT-3 over and buy that schweet 4" model YOU GUYS came up with.

Pete
 
It's very easy to tell the difference between an Ontario knife and a Rat Cutlery knife. Not being a smart ass but looking down the grind alone will show you which one is which. Also the RC-3 is longer than the RAT-3. Once we do our exact designs, such as the TAK, they will be marked to avoid any confusion on warranty issues.
 
R.A.T. said:
It's very easy to tell the difference between an Ontario knife and a Rat Cutlery knife. Not being a smart ass but looking down the grind alone will show you which one is which. Also the RC-3 is longer than the RAT-3. Once we do our exact designs, such as the TAK, they will be marked to avoid any confusion on warranty issues.
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That raises a question: is Rat Cutlery going to produce its own version of the RAT3? I know that you already have an RC3, but the original has a shorter handle, which makes it a better EDC.
 
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