S&W (Taylor Cutlery) revisited

Cosmic Superchunk · Apr 2, 2001

I was at a gun & knife shop the other day looking at several knives, and 2 guys came in asking to see some Smith & Wesson knives. The shop had 2 styles of the SWAT folder in stock, G-10 and Aluminum and after looking them over, each fellow quickly agreed to buy one. In talking to the sales clerk, he said that the SWAT folders were some of the knives they sell out of quick. I realize that lots of folks have bad opinions about Smith & Wesson knives, but many don't realize that there are alot of people who feel that paying $50 or more for a knife is alot of money. I agree that the SWAT folders are pretty basic, but for $30 retail (at the shop I was at) what more can you ask? They come razor sharp and feel solid and have very little to no blade play at all. The action is also very smooth on these folders. This is why they appeal to the average Joe looking for a basic using using knife. Are there better knives out there? Sure there are. But you have to admit, $30 isn't to bad for a scary sharp, solid folding knife when compared to the average knife sold at a Wal-Mart or K-Mart discount store.

RH · Apr 2, 2001

Unfortunately, they are capitalizing on a well known (formerly) respected name. The average Joe will see S&W, CRKT, and Outdoor Edge, and think the S&W is the superior product, since they've never heard of the other 2. The fact is, CRKT and OE kill S&W in terms of quality, AND they are price comparable if you shop around.

Rule #1 - never pay retail.

Cosmic Superchunk · Apr 2, 2001

I agree that CRKT and Outdoor Edge make/produce better knives. However, I've seen some of Taylor Cutlery's Frame lock SWAT knives and the carbon fibre models and they are improving in quality over the basic Aluminum models, which to me seem like zinc alloy. The aluminum models are comparable to CRKT's Commander series in quality and look like they were manufactured by the same maker of the Junglee Knives (Foreign Legion, Crocodile, Sahara Jr models).

[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 04-02-2001).]

the4th · Apr 2, 2001

The SWAT models I have handled were not great. Ok, but not great. The liner lock would typically hyper extend and bind between the blade and far side liner.

I don't care if S&W were making Spyderco quality knives, I wouldn't buy one after they sold out (to the government) on the firearms side.

Bugs3x · Apr 3, 2001

the 4th -- sorry to display such total ignorance of the firearms side of the world, but what did S&W do to sell out?

main topic -- I have been curious to know if the frame lock -- if that's the right expression, I mean like the Sebenza's -- model(s) of S&W knives are any good at all. Not planning on getting one, but it seems that ought to be a little easier to make right, compared to a liner lock.

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Asi es la vida

Bugs

Dexter Ewing · Apr 3, 2001

Speaking of S&W, how many of you have the June 2001 issue of Blade? If so, turn to page 52 - S&W/Taylor Cutlery ad for the new H.R.T. (Hostage Rescue Team) folder. You won't believe who the ad says designed it.....

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Proud member: AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

Living life on the edge

kirch · Apr 3, 2001

Speaking of S&W, maybe someone here can help. Just laid my hands on a 70's-era S&W Model 6060 folding hunter. The story goes that some guy in S&W's warehouse quit/retired/was fired and they found a box of unopened 6060's under his desk when they were cleaning out his office. The knife is in mint condition and looks like it was never taken out of the box (i.e. original leather sheath is still sealed in plastic). I've got 2 questions:
1. There's a little tarnish on the bolsters -- will I harm any potential collector value by polishing it up?
2. They guy I got this from says this is a $300 knife on the collector's market. Recent ebay auctions for the same model (with the same story, in one case) have been in the $75-$125 range. Where are these collectors willing to pay $300 for one of these and where do I find them?

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"I can't believe you stabbed me with this cheap piece of mail-order sh*t"
James Caan in 'Eraser'

Fort Henry Custom Knives · Apr 4, 2001

Hey Dex - So Darrell is Working with S&W now Huh?

lol Seriously though, how can that be legal? Shoot me an email and give me the scoop when you have time.

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Green Acres is the Place To Be, Hard Livin is the Life For Me.

Brian_Turner · Apr 4, 2001

Dex -

Haven't received my copy yet - Do they also mention Mike Lamprey? How much does it look like Mike's original?

Taz · Apr 3, 2001

I saw some of the S&W stuff at a chesapeake knife store in Towson, MD. i was not impressed! the lock looked incredibly thin and weak and the lockup was pretty bad.

Joe Talmadge · Apr 3, 2001

Originally posted by el cid:
I realize that lots of folks have bad opinions about Smith & Wesson knives, but many don't realize that there are alot of people who feel that paying $50 or more for a knife is alot of money.

Actually, I think all the hubbub around S&W is distracting. I also think price isn't really an issue -- if we really had problems with inexpensive knives, we wouldn't have so many fans of $5 puukkos around here. I think in general we understand value for money. I'm more concerned about Taylor Cutlery itself, and the fact that a case can be made that several of their offerings at least appear to be copies of custom or other production knives. I realize that knives are essentially things you hold in your hand to cut other things, and so it's very much to be expected that knives from different makers can end up looking alike, but the more blatant it becomes, the more it irritates me.

My other problem with Taylor Cutlery is that I don't think they are necessarily in the same class as, say, Mora, who offer very inexpensive knives at very good quality for the price. I've handled too many of their folders that I didn't necessarily see the quality of. Especially when it comes to folders, there's kind of a threshold in quality, below which the knife isn't worth it at any price, and I've felt some of the offerings fell below that threshold for me.

Joe

Dexter Ewing · Apr 3, 2001

Vince - I don't have much of a scoop but I'll email ya offline.

Brian - you kidding?! Lamprey too?? You mean S&W will repro that folder?

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Proud member: AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

Living life on the edge

A. G. Russell · Apr 3, 2001

Originally posted by Joe Talmadge:
Actually, I think all the hubbub around S&W is distracting. I also think price isn't really an issue -- if we really had problems with inexpensive knives, we wouldn't have so many fans of $5 puukkos around here. I think in general we understand value for money. I'm more concerned about Taylor Cutlery itself, and the fact that a case can be made that several of their offerings at least appear to be copies of custom or other production knives. I realize that knives are essentially things you hold in your hand to cut other things, and so it's very much to be expected that knives from different makers can end up looking alike, but the more blatant it becomes, the more it irritates me.
Joe

Joe: I am not surprised that you noticed. He started with cheap rip-offs of CS tantos and has spent the years since ripping off who ever he likes. (Of course Lin or Lynn ripped off Bob Lum) Taylor ripped off my Big Bear Bowie design (yeah I ripped the name from RWL) and had the gall to etch on the back "designed by stewart taylor" I don't think that anybody in Tenn except David Hall of United pays royalties or gives credit for the designs they steal. A. G.

Brian_Turner · Apr 3, 2001

Originally posted by Dexter Ewing:

Brian - you kidding?! Lamprey too?? You mean S&W will repro that folder?

No joke! IIRC, The design was shopped to a number of "better" name manufacturers, but only Taylor wanted to produce it. Gotta tell you, those other mfrs dropped the ball big time.

BTW, if you notice the pivot and flipper/guard, this is pretty close to a production Madd Maxx.

Also BTW, they WILL be paying royalties for this design.

Cosmic Superchunk · Apr 3, 2001

It seems rip-offs are becoming a problem with some companies. I remember seeing the first SWAT knives with the etch on the pocket clip "designed by Stewart Taylor."
Does he put this on all S&W knives? I see that Taylor Cutlery has a Spyderco Dyad rip-off too. What about other companies? Does Camillus pay royalties to Bob Terzuola for their CUDA folder? Does Cold Steel pay royalties to Phil Boguszewski for their Ti-Lite? There's a fine line between an "inspired" design and a rip-off.

Darrel Ralph · Apr 3, 2001

Hi.

I am NOT working with Taylor directly.
Mike Lamprey and myself have a colb with the MAKER of S&W.

The knife that Dex is refering to (the HRT) is a different knife than the Lamprey Ralph colb knife. It will be coming as far as I know.

The H.R.T. Was designed by me once again for the maker of Smith and Wesson knives.

I figured it was the best way for me to recoup on the neck knife with the whistle!

More to come on the Lamprey - Ralph collaboration knife!

It does not look like the knife posted above.
It is more tactical black and gray ect. It was at the shot show in the Taylor booth!

These knives were designed before I signed up with Camillus and Delta Z. Both knew my situation before hand.

These two are my focus at this time.
They have two opposite styles of knives .

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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
MADD MAXX !

Brian_Turner · Apr 3, 2001

Originally posted by Darrel Ralph:
Hi.

I am NOT working with Taylor directly.
Mike Lamprey and myself have a colb with the MAKER of S&W.

The knife that Dex is refering to (the HRT) is a different knife than the Lamprey Ralph colb knife. It will be coming as far as I know.

Shows how much I know...

Dexter Ewing · Apr 3, 2001

Brian - with the HRT and the Ralph-Lamprey design, does this mean that Taylor Cutlery is now leaving their past behind (yeah, we know all too well what's in their past

) and becoming a major name player, competing head to head with CRKT, Spyderco, Benchmade, et. al? Most of all, producing stuff with quality materials and properly giving credit where its due?

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Proud member: AKTI, NCCKG, NCKK, and SCAK

Living life on the edge

Will Fennell · Apr 3, 2001

El Cid,
CAMILLUS CUTLERY has a working relationship with Bob Terzuola, you might have noticed our CQB series done in collaboration with him. These knives are his design entirely and he wants his name on them. The CUDA QUICK ACTION series of knives incorporate an opening mechanism concieved by another designer and perfected by our in house design team. We mated this system with a folder that does, admittedly look ALOT like Bob T's ATCF. This was done with his knowledge and blessing, but since he did not design the whole thing, he did not want his name on the knife.

We will also respect Mr. Terzuola's wishes and keep our finacial arrangements him private.

If you wish to sling anymore mud at our company, I would appreciate you signing your name to your accusations.

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Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
www.camillusknives.com

Brian_Turner · Apr 3, 2001

Originally posted by Dexter Ewing:
Brian - with the HRT and the Ralph-Lamprey design, does this mean that Taylor Cutlery is now leaving their past behind (yeah, we know all too well what's in their past

) and becoming a major name player, competing head to head with CRKT, Spyderco, Benchmade, et. al? Most of all, producing stuff with quality materials and properly giving credit where its due?

I've obviously already opened my mouth beyond my capacity to come up with anything actually meaningful on this thread, but there are three things that you can take from this:

1) Darrel is working with S&W. Darrel has never produced crap.

2) Darrel is working with S&W. After the Krait neck knife debacle, you know that he wouldn't be doing it unless he was getting credit and/or compensation that he deemed adequate. And Darrel ain't new to the collaborating biz, so I think he knows what he needs to do to get it. I know Mike's pleased with the deal...

3) What I do know for sure about the Ralph-Lamprey is that there has been no shortage of effort or thought behind the production. It will (at least at the last I heard anything from the horse) be using a very cool handle material. You know the design. It's incredibly fresh and original. This won't be a copy, this will be a new knife. This is the kind of stuff that better knife companies do.

So take these things for what they're worth. Beyond that, anything else I can say would be a guess...