S30V , pro's/con's & heat treat

Jack O'Neill

Jack O'Neill

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
7,175
I have a customer requesting this steel . Doing some research I'm hearing some good and some bad but I'm not finding much . Hearing a lot about the heat treat but no specs on what is recommended ,as I just started my research , I thought I would ask here also for the folks input .

Thank you for your thoughts and knowledge .

Jack ONeill
 
I'm not an expert by any means; but if you send it to peters heat treat and request a 58-59 Rc, you will have a very good blade for all around use.
 
In my testing I have found it to be a little short of the "super steel" aura that surrounded it a few years ago. But it is a good solid performer with good corrosion resistance. Personally, I consider CPM154 the better steel.

The biggest con to me is the difficulty to sharpen versus edge retention ratio isn't very good. There are other steels that do well at higher hardness that hold their edge better in most use that are also easier to sharpen.
 
A long soak is needed to develope the full potential by dissolving the V carbides.
I have no problem with sharpening with fine diamond ,I think it likes a microserrated edge.
 
I'm with Nathan; CPM-154 is a better steel. If you're making a hunter for your customer, steer him towards CPM-S35VN. Much better wear resistance than S30V. It slices sort of like a stainless D2. Harder to finish, though.
 
CPM154 and S35VN are behind S30V in edge holding. Look at the results of CATRA testing at the link below:

http://www.bucorp.com/files/CATRA_Test_Results.pdf

CPM154 is not listed in the results. However, I have other test results comparing 440C, 154CM, CPM154 and N690. CPM154 tested just a little better than 154CM. My own personal testing agrees with CATRA testing.

If your customer wants a nice finish and a knife that is easy to resharpen, use CPM154. If they want edge holding give them what they want and use S30V.
 
Chuck Bybee said:
CPM154 and S35VN are behind S30V in edge holding. Look at the results of CATRA testing at the link below:

http://www.bucorp.com/files/CATRA_Test_Results.pdf

CPM154 is not listed in the results. However, I have other test results comparing 440C, 154CM, CPM154 and N690. CPM154 tested just a little better than 154CM. My own personal testing agrees with CATRA testing.

If your customer wants a nice finish and a knife that is easy to resharpen, use CPM154. If they want edge holding give them what they want and use S30V.
Click to expand...

Chuck, that link does not even list S30V. How many knives have those test guys made??? I respect your testing results, but, in my universe, S35VN has greater wear resistance.
 
thanks guys , I'll take more input if there is any . I have the crucible specs and have read the catra specs . I see crucible is calling for a -112 degree sub-cool in between tempers . Dry ice will not quite make that temp . -110 is the best I've gotten , will that make a difference ?
 
The Crucible supplied PDF on S35VN shows a CATRA edge retention of 145%, or 1.45 times that of 440C, EXACTLY THE SAME as S35V. It shows the CATRA edge retention of 154CM at 120% of 440C. This strongly suggests the CATRA edge retention of S35VN is (1.45/1.20=) 1.21 times that of 154CM.

(Chuck, I'd like to see the data you have showing S35VN behind S30V in edge sharpening - can you post it?)

I am curious - for those reporting lower edge retention, is it a subjective feeling, or actual side by side testing? Is the heat treating different? Maybe the S35VN steel heat treat isn't dialed in? Is the CATRA test flawed?

I'd love to know because I will be making some kitchen knives fairly soon and need to select the steel... based on Crucible's test results, I would probably select S35VN. If other makers are getting better results with another steel than with correctly heat treated S35VN, I'd really like to know!

For now, I like S35VN because I like the way it grinds - I haven't tested its performance against other steels. Even 440C is overkill for the stuff I have been working on, so I'm not particularly concerned about the results.
 
View attachment 230106
Here are some wilderness survival knives I have been making for an outfitter. They are CPM S30-V 60 Rc. with a scandi grind. I was skeptical about using that steel for a bushcraft knife, but a year later they are holding up well. I have been sending them to BOS for heat treat. Like I said I wouldn't usually pick this steel for heavy chopping and bushcraft use, but these knives are used every day in the field and you just can't argue with that.
 
Jason, can't see the attachment. I get an invalid attachment error.
Would like to see the blades if you can re-attach
thanks
 
nice!
Those are some serious S30V slabs.
And they look serious, too.
thanks
 
Jack, shoot for 59-60 RC, that is the sweet spot for CPM S30V. The Crucible data sheet is right on. If you are going to do the heat treat yourself send me an e mail through my web site and I can give you some ideas. The VN version has a little better obtainable hardness but at RC60 I have not seen any edge holding difference. Phil
 
Tait said:
Is the CATRA test flawed?
Click to expand...


CATRA testing is nice because it gives very repeatable results and it does measure something that correlates with how long a knife will remain sharp and continue to cut. However, the flaw in the test is it does a poor job of predicting edge retention in real use because it applies a moderate force, in a nice straight line, against abrasive media, which is not how knives are generally used. So it is heavily biased towards high carbide steels. Those high carbide steels have reduced fine edge stability because of their high carbide content.

In the real world, a blade is generally optimized if the edge degradation is a mix of fine chipping, roll, and abrasive wear. These things are a balancing act between martensite hardness (strongly correlated to the strength of the matrix) carbide fraction (gives abrasive wear resistance at the expense of fine edge stability) and edge geometry. It is usually when these traits are balanced against each other that a knife "holds an edge well". CATRA testing mostly measures abrasive wear resistance, where S30V does really well.



Tait said:
I am curious - for those reporting lower edge retention, is it a subjective feeling, or actual side by side testing?
Click to expand...

My testing of S30V and other steels had been based upon controlled side by side cutting of equal amounts of identical media with blades of nearly identical geometry. S30V's biggest strengths (large carbide volume and high percentage of chromium) are also its biggest weaknesses. It would be a great steel for cutting dirty rope in an ocean side environment, but it isn't the best all around steel. CPM154 can out perform it in many ways due to superior fine edge stability and better suitability at somewhat higher harnesses.
 
Nathan

YOU ARE GOLDEN . I love your real world logic and knowledge of it . But then again , there is your signature line . :confused: :D
 
Troop said:
Chuck, that link does not even list S30V. How many knives have those test guys made??? I respect your testing results, but, in my universe, S35VN has greater wear resistance.
Click to expand...

PM 14-2-4 CrMoV:
PM = Particle Metallurgy
14 Cr = 14% Chrome
2 Mo = 2% Molybdenum
4 V = 4% Vanadium

This is the composition of S30V.

Nathan,
What gives CPM154 better fine edge stability than standard 154CM?

I disagree with your comment:
Nathan said:
Those high carbide steels have reduced fine edge stability because of their high carbide content.
Click to expand...
This argument has been negated by the new 2nd and 3rd generation particle metallurgy steels. The new PM steels from Carpenter, Bohler & Uddeholm use extremely fine particles when making their steels. The finer particles result in tougher steels that have high carbide content and excellent edge stability.

Tait,
I could not get the pdf to open.
Tait said:
I'd love to know because I will be making some kitchen knives fairly soon and need to select the steel... based on Crucible's test results, I would probably select S35VN. If other makers are getting better results with another steel than with correctly heat treated S35VN, I'd really like to know!
Click to expand...
Check out Uddeholm Elmax. If you want toughness, heat treat it to HRC 59. At this hardness it is 50% tougher than S30V. It you want edge holding heat treat to HRC 62. At this hardness it beat CPM M4 in the CATRA test.

If you want extreme edge holding use S90V or M390. We have several knives made by Phil Wilson with these steels. The edge holding is amazing and none of the knives have chipped. The latest knife is made from M390 and the HRC is 63. The edge is very thin. The secondary bevel is about .010" high and .008" thick. It has better edge holding that ANY knife I have ever used. We have used it on the packaging bench, in the kitchen and in the shop. The toughest test I given it was using it to deburr aluminum, bronze and titanium. There has been no chipping and it sharpens quickly on crock sticks.
 
Thank you very much for that review ranking thread - that's exactly what I needed.

I am a regular bladeforums reader and I have no idea how I missed that thread!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top