S35VN or S30V or ELMAX?

jfindon

jfindon

Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
967
I'm looking into having a custom knife made for me, and I have these three steels available to pick from. Well, CPM154 is also in there but I think the other steels are generally better. My prelim finding seem to point to S35VN, but I'm not 100% sure. It looks like it's a little easier to sharpen and holds an edge better. I'm not sure how ELMAX compares to these two, but it's in my head that it would go like this:

S35VN
S30V
ELMAX
CPM154

I know it's all down to the maker/heat treatment, but in general terms, which is looked at higher? I don't see myself getting another custom for a long time, so I want to make sure I get the best steel I can.
 
I'm a fan of CPM154. I prefer it to S30V, but that is just me. I seem to be able to get a better edge that lasts longer with CPM154. I have no experience with S35VN, but hear good things. I only own a few Kershaws in ELMAX steel, but I am pretty impressed with it. It takes a keen edge, seems to hold it for quite some time, and it also seems pretty stain resistant. I'm a freak when it comes to wiping my blades down though so even if it didn't stand up to corrosion very well I probably wouldn't know.

To me, it would probably come down to S35VN and CPM154. My reasoning is because you can't find many production knives that use these steels. In fact, I don't think any production knives are using S35VN yet and only the limited Kershaw Blur in CPM154 was available.
 
ELMAX would be the choice here I believe, it's very stainless developed for the plastics industry and if the makers HTer knows what they are doing with it they can get it to 62 HRC.

You won't be disappointed with its performance at around 61 or 62 HRC.

Even at 60 HRC it's comparable with CPM-154 at 62 and ZDP-189 at 65 HRC.
 
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+1 ELMAX

Its a excellent steel but hard to explain, its a stainless but acts like a carbon steel. You get all the ease of sharpening and great edge holding without all that red stuff.
 
Hmm, I actually have the Kershaw Speedform in ELMAX but didn't know it was thought of that highly...
 
jfindon said:
I'm looking into having a custom knife made for me, and I have these three steels available to pick from. Well, CPM154 is also in there but I think the other steels are generally better. My prelim finding seem to point to S35VN, but I'm not 100% sure. It looks like it's a little easier to sharpen and holds an edge better. I'm not sure how ELMAX compares to these two, but it's in my head that it would go like this:

S35VN
S30V
ELMAX
CPM154

I know it's all down to the maker/heat treatment, but in general terms, which is looked at higher? I don't see myself getting another custom for a long time, so I want to make sure I get the best steel I can.
Click to expand...

No one of those among best steels available now - you should ask for CTS-XHP.

Among those 4 CPM154 is best all other pretty average steels with identical average performance.

More data here:
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html

Thanks, Vassili.
 
You didnt say what kind of custom knife. Folder or fixed blade? If fixed, what size? What will it be used for? Do you live in a humid/coastal climate? Are you adept at sharpening knives? Those things make a difference when choosing steel. ;)
 
According to this:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=793481

I would prefer Elmax, though I would check to see if M390 is available, as it's Bohler's premium offering. If the HT is also at a custom level, you could push the hardness to Rc62 which would be harder to sharpen, but well worth it in terms of edge retention.

CTS-XHP is promising, but I find that 440C level of corrosion resistance simply doesn't cut it for me(no pun intended). I also notice the edge loses its razor sharpness but keeps an aggressive edge for a while. Personally though, I much prefer the more subtle toothy edge of S90V and other vanadium steels due to the smaller carbides.
 
Maybe it would also be interesting to put these to the comparison

NIOLOX (SB1)
VANAX
 
I like CPM-M4. It both holds an edge well and is tough, unlike a lot of other exotic steels that make you choose (ZDP-189, for instance). Only problem is that it's not stainless. Hopefully M390 and Elmax will become more readily available.
 
Tsujigiri said:
I like CPM-M4. It both holds an edge well and is tough, unlike a lot of other exotic steels that make you choose (ZDP-189, for instance). Only problem is that it's not stainless. Hopefully M390 and Elmax will become more readily available.
Click to expand...

+ a whole bunch
I'm still waiting for the day when stainless will overtake the industry standards in the blue collar world.
Hopefully I'll see this development in my lifetime.
 
singularity35 said:
Welcome back Vassili. How would you say CTS-XHP compares to CPM-M4?
Click to expand...

CTS-XHP has much better edge retention then CPM M4 and it is stainless and cheaper in production (for some reason it is now available only from Hiderer and price is way out reasonable range IMHO).

CPM M4 best what Crucible was able to offer so far for knife industry but it is not stainless and this moves it to carbon steel class. But among carbon steels this one only on top in price - there are many older and cheaper steels with simple composition which performs better. So what the point? I rather choose CPM D2 which performs same and semi stainless if I have to choose only from Crucible for some reason.

Crucible keep offering one "super steel" after another without much success - CPM S30V, CPM 154, CPM D2, CPM 110V, CPM M4, CPM S35VN... Latest one even worse then CPM S30V.

Latest trend seems to be to have own "suoer steel" for each manufacurer. Like Kershaw has Elmax (I rather prefer them to stick with CPM D2 which they do pretty well), Benchmade has M360, Spyderco has CPM M4. But unfortunately Elmax and M360 performs pretty average and it is became clear now even with this "Informal" test results - people start using them and see real performance. So this one "super steel" for each is not working really - after all there is no too many real super steels around.

I hope that sooner or later CTS-XHP will make it's way to us final customers. I do not see why it is not dominated market yet - it performs best, it is US made, probably not very expensive. I do not understand why after it first was introduced with great success early last year it is not yet more available. With ZDP189 we had much more models and manufacturers offering it after much less time it was first introduced.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I do not see "toughness" as a factor o choose steel for knives. May be for skyscraper construction it would be preferable, but why for knives? Until someone want to do fencing knife against knife. Toughness of any steel just enough. There is edge chipping issue, but this has nothing to do with steel toughness and rather HT issue. For example it was a lot of cry about CPM S30V being tougher then CPM S60V, but with edge retention being several times worse little increase in toughness just does not make sense! And still I saw knife with CPM S30V with top ranked manufacturer being broken (and I do not remembe any broken CPM S0V). I value CPM S60V much higher then "tougher" CPM S30V.

It looks like toughness is usual excuse for any new steel to be less performing - to have worse edge holding. As well as "hard to sharpen" and other excuses to compete at least somehow with better steel.
 
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termiteslayer said:
+ a whole bunch
I'm still waiting for the day when stainless will overtake the industry standards in the blue collar world.
Hopefully I'll see this development in my lifetime.
Click to expand...

ZDP-189 and CTS-XHP already outperform carbon steels.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Danbo said:
:rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Yeah there isn't any way either one of those will even begin to touch CPM-10V, not even on the same planet.

XHP and ZDP-189 are good, but they aren't that good....

And in a custom blade the choices would be S110V, M390, S90V for stainless and CPM 10V for Non stainless for the best edge retention.
 
Only ZDP-189 blade I have ever owned, chipped badly. Not exactly ultimate performance, IMO.
 
Buffalohump said:
You didnt say what kind of custom knife. Folder or fixed blade? If fixed, what size? What will it be used for? Do you live in a humid/coastal climate? Are you adept at sharpening knives? Those things make a difference when choosing steel. ;)
Click to expand...

Good questions, forgot to specify.

It's going to be a folder, won't be used for anything heavy because it's my first custom and I'll likely want to take care of it, I live in PA so it's not very humid, and I can sharpen knives to easily shave hair, but that's about it.

Looking at the rest of the thread, it seems there are conflicting reports (not a surprise). The four steels I listed are the ones he says he's willing to use, so I don't think I can ask for something else. He did say they were the four "stainless" steels he's willing to use, so that may mean he could use non-stainless ones if I wanted. I'm not sure if I can specify a heat treatment either, I've never ordered one before so I'm still figuring out what I can and can't have control over.
 
jfindon said:
Good questions, forgot to specify.

It's going to be a folder, won't be used for anything heavy because it's my first custom and I'll likely want to take care of it, I live in PA so it's not very humid, and I can sharpen knives to easily shave hair, but that's about it.

Looking at the rest of the thread, it seems there are conflicting reports (not a surprise). The four steels I listed are the ones he says he's willing to use, so I don't think I can ask for something else. He did say they were the four "stainless" steels he's willing to use, so that may mean he could use non-stainless ones if I wanted. I'm not sure if I can specify a heat treatment either, I've never ordered one before so I'm still figuring out what I can and can't have control over.
Click to expand...

The best thing to do is contact the maker and find out exactly what you can and can't do, it's a custom knife in the end so you should have some control.

I repeat the best of the 4 listed is ELMAX.
 
ojfindon, All the steels you listed would make nice knives. you are already aware that the heat treating and geometry play a critical role so given that it is right on for each, I can offer some insight on some of the subtle differences in each grade. All you mentioned are in the stainless category so corrosion resistance would not be an issue given reasonable care.

CPM S30V, you will have a wider choicf makers with this one. It has been around long enough for most guys to work out the pros and cons. Most heat treaters will know what to do with it. I have made probably 100 or so fillet knives with it and that is a good test of all around balance of hardness and ductility. Be sure to ask for a sub zero quench since it makes a big difference on this grade. The 3% vanadium gives it some long range edge holding. I would specify RC 60 for the hardness for a hunter and 58,59 for a fillet or kitchen knife. All the high alloy stainless like this one do not take prying or chopping loads very well. This is especially true if you specify a thin grind and shallow angle edge.

CPM S35VN, I have not used this one myself but the addition of niobium should allow it to be pushed a little higher in hardness and the other tweaks to help improve the ductility. If you find a maker with experience then I think it would be an improvement over S30V. Could you tell the difference in edge holding or ductility? Probably not but the changes will most likely make it a little easier to work with for the maker.

CPM 154. This is the PM version of the old standby grade 154 CM. I still like the older grade better for some applications but the CPM did add some ductility and as a result for a utility hunter the hardness can be pushed up to RC 62/63. Even though there is no vanadium in this one it has 4% moly which contributes to a complex carbide that is almost as hard as vanadium. This combined with the higher hardness would give a little better performance over the 30V or 35V grades.

ELMAX I have only been using this one for a little over a year and 5 knives so far but it has demonstrated to be nice to work with. I have some test knives at RC 62 that do not chip with agressive whittling on seasoned fir. This is with a very thin edge behind the sharpened bevel (.010). Bohler claims a very fine PM structure and I think that contributes to the ductility and ease of working. Edge holding is very good due to the increased hardness and fine grain. You can get this steel very, very sharp. I think it would be a great candidate for your custom. This one also benefits from a subzero right after the quench and I would specify RC 61 as a good hardness target. Be sure your maker has a heat treater that has experience with the grade..

There are a lot of other steels, some mentioned here that make a fine custom. All have pros and cons, life is like that, but I wanted to speak to your original question. Hope this helps .. Phil
 
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